Larry Holmes - There Should Be a Size limit On The Heavyweight s!

We are kind of going around in circles here, with posters (me included) not directly addressing the points made by other posters in their responses. So, to address the points you & others have made, as well as again attempting to make mine, within a single post:

I agree, all other factors being equal and assuming these weights are their natural, ideal fighting weights, that a >6ft 5ins/240lbs+ fighter has an advantage in a fight against a <6ft 1ins/210lbs boxer.

I agree that a small proportion of the top 30-50 HWs regularly weigh below 220lbs.

With respect, we agree on the above points, so they don't need making again.

Where we disagree, is on the need for another weight division/increasing the max limit of CW. The downside is clear & obvious (hopefully) to all - it would dilute the quality of fighters in each weight division and further reduce the instances of the best fighting the best.

So, the only question is, is it necessary? If boxers with natural fighting weights of 201-225lbs couldn't realistically compete successfully at world level, I'd agree it was necessary. But they can. All or the vast majority of fighters competing successfully at CW will fall in this weight range. Usyk and Wilder have competed successfully at HW whilst weighing within that range. The natural fighting weights for some HWs that actually weigh >225lbs, will fall within this range.

I tell you what - if you can name me a weight range & I can't give you multiple examples of boxers competing successfully at world level, whose natural fighting weight falls within that range, I'll concede you're right and that a new weight division is required. Can you?

 

Fine. But what am I not getting? These two "prospects" are 30 and 28, not young by historical standards, or the standards or other sports.

For example, in the NFL you have some old men but the top quarterbacks this year are men like Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, and Hurt, who are in their early or mid-twenties. All are younger by several years than your prospects.

All you are telling me is that in the days of Tyson and earlier we had young men in their twenties. Now young guys are no longer the top men.

Is your argument that the young men are being avoided by the old men? If so, why do the promoters allow it?

 

If your best weight is between 201-225 then you are forced to move up or down, you can't fight at your best weight. It like the initial 8 the weight classes. People grew out of it, right? Back in the day there was no light heavyweight class. The was middle and heavyweight. And a lot of weight in-between. Similarly there is too much of a best weight variation of at heavyweight. 200- 280 with top 50 guys being over 240 pounds in 38 cases!

Usyk is a unique bird. There has been like him, ever. That I why I say start a new class at say 220. I think they already did. The are no men the size of Dempsey , Louis, Marciano or no them at the weight of Ali or Holmes doing well at heavyweight today. Is this an accident? I say now way.

As for the weight range you requested I would say 210-225. How may fighters are active? I find just two, but lots of guys would move up or down to fit is this new class.

 

No I am saying the old "champions " are avoid top ten rank men, and not giving them a chance! The promtoers are merely feeding them what they feel "safe " with. Let's not pretend business is on the level in boxing. That is what I'm trying to say. Why do the promoters allow it? LOL, they don't care as long as they can make money.

There has not been a young amateur star in heavyweight boxing since Wlad in the 1990s. I explained why previously.

 

So you can't name a weight range where there are no boxers, whose ideal fighting weight falls within that range, successfully competing at world level?

Fighters in all weight divisions except HW dehydrate. Boxers with natural fighting weights of of 201-220lbs can - 1) Fight at CW; 2) If they're good enough, like Byrd, Haye, Usyk & Wilder, fight at HW at their natural fighting weight; 3) Bulk up and compete at HW, like Chagaev, Povetkin, Ruiz and Wilder attempted in Fury III.

What relevance does there being no boxers the size of Dempsey, Louis or Marciano competing successfully at HW today have to do with the discussion on the merits of introducing a 220lbs weight division? Boxers with 185-190lbs fighting weights (Marciano & Dempsey) compete at LHW today. Boxers with a natural 200-205lbs fighting weights (Louis) compete at LHW (e.g. Zurdo), mostly at CW and HW (e.g. Uysk).

I don't know what else I can say to help you understand that introducing a weight division of 220lbs would have no impact on most fighters naturally weighing 201-220lbs. Those only good enough to compete at world level at CW would continue to cut to 200lbs. Those good enough to beat any boxer in the world aside from maybe Fury (Usyk) would continue to compete in the open weight class. What it would impact, is boxers weighing between 230-240lbs, who aren't good enough to compete at world level at HW, as those guys would cut to 220lbs and rehydrate to 230-240lbs on fight night. So, the only impact would be to further dilute the talent pool.

 

We are not talking about re-hydrating a few pounds here. In boxing size matters. Its a reason why there are weight classes!

Go find me the last significant fight between two men under 220 pounds, but over 201 pounds. Well -- go ahead. What's that, you can find any in the last good one in 5-10 years? Maybe you'll wake up one day and say I used to enjoy matches between 200-225 pound men. There aren't anymore good matches between man this size, not that there can't be, there just are not. Again, look at the top 50. 1 man is 220 pounds and that depends on what he has eaten that day. 48 or 50 men are 240+. Are you telling me they can cut weight and move to cruiser? Are you telling me what happened 30+ years ago is similar to today? 50 years ago? I'm here to say it's not so.

Greg, there are not your great fathers, grandfathers, dad's, or even much older siblings heavyweight division! The game has changed. I'm done here, I made my points. I think a new weight class is needed.

Respectfully,

Mendoza

 

All or the vast majority of CW WT fights in the past couple of decades have been between 2 x boxers weighing between 201 and 220lbs (admittedly Okolie and Gassiev were probably over 220lbs in the ring at CW, but that only further supports my point).

1 of the top 2 HWs in the world has a natural fighting weight between 201-220lbs.

2 of the top 4 HWs in the world for the past 3-years have natural fighting weights between 201-220lbs.

It is for these reasons that a new weight class is not required.

 

in Amateur boxing these fighters you talk of are already heavyweights. if the Cruiserweight division was labelled as correctly as it is in the Amateurs we would not have a problem.

yes there are men the size of Dempsey and Louis in the heavyweight division. Problem is that division is labelled incorrectly.