Does anyone still have Dempsey as a top ten heavy? Top 15?

Greb of course in Weinert's case.

Who in Bettina's?

 

You also have to look at who Wills didn't beat, and who he lost to.

He didn't beat Willard, and whatever you think of Willard, that is a problem.

That needed to be proved in the ring, and Dempsey had a better case to face Willard for the title.

He split a series with Big Bill Tate, in the middle of Dempsey's reign, though he recovered the situation quickly.

Make of that what you will.

Dempsey beat his conqueror in Jack Sharkey, and that was probably a harder task, than beating old Wills at the time.

Frankly, the biggest mistake that Dempsey ever made, was fighting Tunney instead of Wills!

 

Because it was basically his last year in which he notched serious wins.

 

So, to clarify, do you think Langford was a legitimate (say top 3) contender at any point during Dempsey's reign?

 

I have no rankings to look at and am not going sit down and construct rankings, but Langford appears to have had several "on" nights extending into the early twenties. He may have had one of these nights if given a full training camp and shot at the heavyweight title. Moreover, he would've been a very solid opponent for Dempsey at various points before Dempsey won the title.

I also think that zooming in on Denpsey's choices of opponents during his limited title run in favor of his title run and extended period as a contender is the work of slippery Dempsy apologists.

 

Pretty interesting points .

 

top ten.

7 year reign and did well against bigger men

 

You're so blinded by your own agenda that you've completely misunderstood mine. I think Dempseys title run was underwhelming and as I've posted in this thread, I'm in a minority that ranks Wills higher than Dempsey on my all time HW list. I'm engaged in another debate on this very thread where I'm defending my position of ranking Dempsey lower than I would had he fought and beaten prime Wills.

My agenda was nothing more than what I've been posting. I.e. that Langford wasnt a credible challenger at any point during Dempseys reign. Nothing more, just that, and for no reason other than that your inference he may have been is clearly absurd.

 

He wasn't necessarily better than the guys who Dempsey defended his title against, but Dempsey rarely defended his title at a time when boxers took a lot of fights. Langford could've been penciled in after beating Tate, for example.

 

I agree Dempsey wasnt an active champ, particularly between Firpo and Tunney. At no point during his reign would Langford have been an acceptable challenger.

 

But between Miske and Firpo, he was indeed a fighting champion by the standards of his era. From 1920 to 1923, he won five HW Title defenses, as many as Jack Johnson and Rocky Marciano won. (Primo Carnera would be the next HW Champion after Dempsey to bring that title out of mothballs, winning defenses against Wills conqueror Paulino Uzcudun and ATG Tommy Loughran in an 11-4 decision which even Paul Gallico conceded was completely on the level. The films prove that Primo was legit. He decked Larry Gains, survived an awesome battering from a peak Jack Sharkey in their first bout, then knocked out Sharkey in their rematch to win the title. The ready availability of these films wrecked Gallico's narrative on Carnera. Primo's three defenses in less than a year's time deserves applause.)

 

And this includes the only common opponent of Dempsey and Louis, Jack Sharkey, who admitted Dempsey's body shots were wearing him down (evident on film) to the point Sharkey candidly stated he could not have made it to the final bell.

 

Stamina is so critical that I automatically disqualify any steroid inflated HW Champion from top ten consideration who did not win over at least the Championship Distance of 15 rounds or more. (Here, it's hard to exclude Foreman, who perfected the ring cutting that would've made Dempsey invincible.) With Tommy Gibbons (a criminally underrated and overlooked title defense), Dempsey checked that Championship Distance box in a dominant decision win where Tommy could not have lasted 20 rounds, Jack's legs had as much spring in round one as they did in round 15, and Tommy's head was left a pulpy lumpy mess. Late round power? Check. In round 12, Jack rallied from behind to drop Bill Brennan on his face for the count with rights to the body. Again, Sharkey was a comeback win. Dempsey was no kind of front runner

He weighed 234 when he commenced training for Gibbons. Everybody who ever had the privilege of meeting him in person (including me) can tell you he was more than big enough to wreck any HW who will ever live, on a H2H basis. He literally wrote the books on how to fight in 1942 (American WW II land combat vets revered him for this) and 1950. Bruce Lee introduced the left hook into the Asian martial arts because of his careful study of Jack's books and fight films. Dempsey was a body killer, but when Gibbons went after Jack's body, Dempsey's foot speed and mobility made it virtually impossible. (This would be extremely bad news for Jeffries and Frazier. 1960's Ali was the only other HW Champion who could really evade bodyshots like Dempsey did in Shelby. Otherwise, Jack shrugged off the head shots, and Tommy could hit. Dempsey also absorbed Willard's literally deadly right uppercuts.)

1919 Toledo Dempsey versus 1928 Tunney (who wrecked Heeney)? I keep looking at the Long Count sequence and see Jack repeatedly stunning Gene through canting his head to the left, then countering Tunney's missed jabs with bell ringing rights to Gene's temple. This time, he has the foot speed to catch up to Tunney.

Gene dominated Jack because he was completely obsessed with Dempsey, had years of incredible competitive preparation, and was by far the smartest HW Champion of all time. In 85 bouts, he was only decked once. We all know who pulled off that singular feat. If Gene had gone on as long as possible, he would have finally lost the title in a rematch decision to Joe Louis. (Tunney was still improving in 1928. With first rate conditioning, the highest of boxing IQs and making one defense every one to two years, he lasts until Louis without difficulty, then wins their first title skirmish before making Joe go the limit again to win it, thanks in no small measure to his first rate chin.)

My top three are forever set in stone with the elimination of the Championship Distance:

1) 1967 Ali
2) 1982 Holmes
3) 1919 Dempsey

4) Louis (Max Baer [quintuple hook KD sequence best moment of the Bomber's career] and Godoy II)
5) Tunney (Had the mind, absolute fearlessness and square shouldered physical template for decisioning Louis. Pastor, Conn and JJW proved that Joe needed rematches to figure out guys like that. Out jabbing modern sized HWs? Look up Loughran, Tommy. Again, a criminally overlooked win for Carnera.

6) Marciano (Fought the best of his era. First HW Title challenger with an unblemished record.)
7) 1969 Frazier (would have defeated more of history's other HW Champions than any version of two time conqueror Foreman. The toughest HW Champion ever. Even made Chuvalo and JQ turn away from him. Dempsey, Louis and Marciano much preferred punching room to being crowded, while Frazier wrote the book on it. Jerry Quarry may also be a top five HW infighter all time, and Joe wore him down and busted him up in their first match. I don't believe Smoke would've been competitive against the mythical Ali of 1968-1969 however. Only 1982 Holmes with Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel might've pulled that off.

8) Jim Jeffries. Bring him out of a time machine, give him a 25 round limit, and he wipes out the modern HW division.

9) Jack Johnson (Maybe the greatest defensive HW Champion. Even neutralized Fireman Flynn's flying head butt attempts.)

10) JJW. Incredibly crafty and dangerous. The Lewiston footage shows him to be the same size as Ali and Liston.

 

He did not deck Gains indeed Gains had no trouble with him at all and afterwards commented that Carnera did not punch his weight.
Larry Gains, Toronto Negro who holds the British Empire heavyweight title and who last night overwhelmed Primo Carnera, declared today he hoped to get a bout soon with either Jack Sharkey or Max Schmeling. Gains got the decision over Carnera after ten rounds of fast work. which left the Italian puzzled. In the 10th fans howled as Gains chased the giant around the ring. Carnera was at a loss after his blows failed to stop Gains, who wove in and out about Carnera's guard, hitting almost at will. Gains was fast and he hit hard. In the 2nd and 6th rounds in particular Gains' blows were unusually effective and would have knocked out many a fighter of less size than Carnera. Lefts and right to the jaw were fast and frequent, and the great Italian rocked under them." -International News Service

 

Walcott as a fighter was never the same size as Liston or Ali. A middle aged heavyweight man in clothes is going to look heavier than two trained to the minute boxers.that is obvious.
Uzcudun beat Wills in1927 ,by the time Uzcudun fought Carnera [in1930,]he hadn't been a ranked fighter for 2 years.
Carnera had 84lbs on Loughran who couldn;t punch at all due to bad hands,Tommy was further handicapped by Carnera breaking one of his toes when he stamped on it.Loughran was on the way down and lost his next few fights.