Is GGG a top 10 Middleweight of all time

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Joeywill, Dec 12, 2022.


Is GGG a top 10 Middleweight ever

Poll closed Dec 19, 2022.
  1. Yes

    30.9%
  2. No

    69.1%
  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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  2. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Ketchel & Gibbons are locks for any credible MW top 10 where quality of opposition beaten is the key ranking criteria. Williams is also locked ahead of GGG based on that criteria. Compare their best wins in fights contested at or around 160lbs:

    Gibbons - Greb*, Dillon*, Jeff Smith x 3*, Mike O'Dowd*, Al McCoy, George Chip x 3, Leo Houck x 2, Gus Christie x 4, Ted Kid Lewis
    Ketchel - Papke x 3*, Jack O'Brien x 2*, Hugo Kelly*, Mike Sullivan, Jack Sullivan, Joe Thomas
    Williams - Burley x 3*, Lloyd Marshall x 2*, Bert Lytell*, Eddie Booker*, Aaron Wade*, Cocoa Kid, Jack Chase x 4*, Kid Tunero x 3
    GGG - Jacobs, Derevyankchenko, Murray, Lemieux, Geale, Stevens, Macklin, Brook

    *denotes fighters I suspect most credible historians would rank as top 50 all time MWs. How would you rank these 4 based on the most wins over fighters you think would be likely to appear in most historians top 50 MWs? As you can see, I have it - 1) Williams x 12; 2) Gibbons x 6 and Ketchel x 6; 4) GGG x 0. I think this contrast would be even more stark in a way that is unfavourable for GGG if we extended this to wins over top 100 x MWs.

    I doubt you'll directly & honestly answer the above question, but I'll answer yours on Gibbons, Steele & Williams, anyway:

    1) Ring magazine contenders beaten - I don't know for Williams or Steele. Given Gibbons retired in the same year the ring magazine was founded, I'd imagine 0.

    2) Title defences - Steele, Gibbons & Williams are 0-0 in lineal MW title fights. GGG is officially 0-1-1. Whilst I except GGG was once the best MW in the world, that could equally apply to the others & with no ABC titles when they fought, it's important to apply ranking criteria consistently.

    3) Prime losses (a better indicator than losses under 35, fighters peak & go past prime at different ages across different eras based on number of fights, advancements in sports science and being matched harder and earlier than in previous eras) - According to my notes & including newspaper decisions Gibbons lost 5 fights @ MW in his prime years, Williams 8 & Steele 2. When you consider the quantity & quality of their opposition relative to GGG's, this doesn't offset their far superior win resumes, imo.

    Ryan is more arguable in the sense that he didn't beat any ATG MWs at MW (NP Jack Dempsey was essentially a WW contest) either. However, he was lineal MW champ for 8-years and went 12-1 in lineal title fights. Proving he was the best in the world for 8 x years counts more for me, relative to GGG where I suspect he was the best MW in the world for a number of years. Ryan lost twice, to the great Charles McCoy (who he also drew with and from memory he has a NC with when police intervened when McCoy was on the brink of being stopped) and 1 x DQ loss.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2022
  3. C.J.

    C.J. Boxings Living Legend revered & respected by all Full Member

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    In reality GGG is STILL the undisputed MIDDLEWEIGHT Champion of the world. No one has legitimately beaten him for it especially Canelo Heck he couldn't beat an over 40 GGG legitimately
     
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  4. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Good effort.

    Ketcel is very over rated. He isn't skilled on film and his resume is thin.

    Gibbons was a solid guy, but I don't know any historians who have Jeff Smith is there top 50, and few have few top 50 lists. Which historian has him in their top ten?

    Williams lost to much to be considered in the top 10.

    I think Canleo rate would rate in the top 50 middleweights by the way.

    GGG beat Canelo in their fight fight, has an impeccable record, and passes the eye test easily. It's not his fault he was avoided by Martinez and others in his prime.

    By the way what film have you seen M Gibbons are the very recently added Williams to the hall of fame in?


    PS: You didn't ask any questions is this reply.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
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  5. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks.

    You do know of a boxing historian who ranks Smith top 50 at MW. Matt Mcgrain. The depth of research he has done exceeds mine and I strongly suspect yours too.

    My question is how many wins do you think Williams, Gibbons, Ketchel and GGG have over boxers that are likely to be ranked top 50 all time at MW by credible historians?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
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  6. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Thats is only one and can he place his full list here? I'm not sure when it was written ( 2015 ? ) and GGG's career is still going in 2022. GGG might very well be on it when his career ends. I think GGG cetainly had done enough to make the top 50, as do most people. It is best to rate a fighter after his career ends, don't you agree? If his view when his career ends he GGG is not in his top 50 then it's a rather narrow historian, who goes against the grain. Mcgrain seems to ignore losses ... especially in the cases of men who fought 50+ years ago in his rankings. That's my critique of his finely written article.

    I don't see many historians who made a top 50 list. So your question is difficult to answer. Very few I say. I view the man defined by the same qualities of ring magazine fighters beaten, overall ring record, # of defeats ( omit the bad decision defined by the majority of the press who saw the fights live ) and title defenses.

    My question remains, how many times on film have you seen Williams, M Gibbons, and Ketchel?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2022
  7. dinovelvet

    dinovelvet Antifanboi Full Member

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    No because he wouldn't go into the danger zone in the biggest fights of his career. He let them slip away because he wasn't willing to take risks. You can't say he approached the Canelo fights with a refuse-to-be-denied attuite.
    Well , that's the attitude of an ATG.
    To make matters worse Canelo was smaller and lighter hitting than him.

    Fury showed the making of an all time great when he refused to be denied in the Wilder rematch. He took the risks against a much harder puncher and came away with the crown.

    Roy Jones is an ATG because he moved up weights to seek out challenges. Golovkin complained he couldn't get fights at 160. He was offered one of the biggest names in the sport at 168 and went running.
    Not an ATG!
     
  8. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    I'll state it flat-out: Golovkin would eat Ketchel's lunch and make it look easy. If boxing was some kind of sport with measurable metrics, like car racing, for instance, GGG would be lapping Ketchel by the end. I'm not sure that Ketchel even hits harder than Golovkin.
     
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  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think this is a fair and reasonable opinion.

    If you are making a head-to-head list, it also really matters (for your list).

    But h2h are always the least interesting type of lists IMO, and also the easiest to do. In H2H you can basically order them in any way you wish and most people do - people consistently rate their favourites higher on head to head lists, you see it all the time.

    There are some things though.

    1) It would be much harder for GGG to do what you describe under Kethel's ruleset, which is very different. I presume you don't see a KO1 here? So assuming you respect Ketchel's durability, GGG has to deal with Ketchel taking hold of him and lashing him with punches while pushing with the head, something generally held as alloable in his erea, that Ketchel has loads of practice at, and GGG has literally never, ever done. You were almost certainly thinking about 2022 rules when you posted the above.

    2) They are in completely different weight classes. For much of Ketchel's career 154lbs was the limit. He was a literal light-middleweight on a same-day weight in regime - a modern light-welterweight or welterweight. This provides an enormous h2h advantage. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien and Tommy Gibbons are much better examples of peer-to-peer comparisons for GGG but nobody does them for some reason.

    Anyway both of these are reasons to dismiss h2h appraisals for me. If you're serious about making head-to-head a signficant factor, you should have two lists and a cut-off point IMO, and as Mendoza is now labouring over, it's very hard to do h2h lists based upon scraps of or zero footage, so you're basically talking about a list from SRR onwards, probably.

    Certainly removing a swathe of fighters with demonstrably superior careers makes it easer to get Golovkin in a top ten :p
     
  10. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    I guess Rocky Marciano just became my #1 heavyweight ;)
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I can't say that carries; but he is my number three. Unless you're turbo charging losses (which a lot of modernists do) it doesn't really make sense to have him above guys with hugely superior resumes though.

    I did a top 100 at HW once and Ali had beaten like 15% of the guys on it :lol:
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Many errors here from a hater.

    1) Canelo was over 180 pounds on fight night. He was the heavier man.
    2 ) He was busted for steroids in the time line when he fought Canelo.
    3 ) GGG took the re-match, yet he doesn't get credit like Fury for doing the same thing? Makes perfect sense.

    Lots of fighters avoided GGG at 160. Jones did fight DM. Or Steve Collins or Nigel Benn. He fought Hall though and teases 5 times the limit.
     
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  13. Greg Price99

    Greg Price99 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I'm not claiming GGG isn't a top 50 MW, I rank him 13. I claimed Jeff Smith could be considered a top 50 MW, you said you don't know any historians who rank him there, I corrected you.

    I've seen film of Williams, Gibbons & Ketchel, though it doesn't factor heavily into my ranking. Certainly not as heavily as number of fights won against ATG & borderline ATG MWs, does. Before I answer any further questions, please post your 1-20 ordered top wins of Gibbons, Ketchel, Williams & GGG, based on where the fighters they beat would rank in your all-time MW list.

    Mendoza, the vote is currently Yes = 7; No = 25. It's therefore reasonable to postulate that at no. 13, I overate GGG relative to the average Classic Forum poster. This makes sense to me, as I place more emphasis on consistent domination in a fighters own era and prime losses, and less on the number of historically significant names on the win resume, in my ranking criteria than most posters, just not to the same extent that you are doing in this instance.

    Me debating GGG's all time standing @ MW with you, is a bit like a right-wing Tory trying to explain to Nigel Farage why his views on immigration may have gone a bit too far (apologies to any non-UK posters who don't get that reference).
     
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  14. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    I guess we rate H2H differently then. Marciano would probably by in my lower top 10.

    I do tend to put emphasis on losses and especially prime losses. Some folks say Golovkin's resume is filler but what do we say about these old timers with 100 fights against guys that we would be howling about should matches like that be made today? I mean, Ketchel fought about 11 debut fighters and another 9 guys with losing records. About half of Ketchel's resume is unadulterated garbage that somebody derided on Golovkin's resume like Steve Rolls would go through like a hot knife through butter. What do we then say about that?

    When I look at fights like Papke vs Ketchel I can't see any top ten middleweight today having problems with either. To me that carries weight.
     
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    GGG is very interesting at the weight. You have him, presumably, above Tiger Flowers (beat Greb twice), Jack Dillon (Bob Moha, Eddie McGoorty, Leo Houck, Jack and Mike Sullivan, Gus Christie, Frank Mantell, Buck Crouse, Tony Caponi, Hugo Kelly, basically a whole generation of quality middleweights), Mickey Walker, Bob Fitzsimmons, Canelo or most of them. That is a bold claim.

    I think GGG is going to be very interesting because he was basically unlucky not to have won one of those fights with Canelo and his overall resume is pretty deep with good fighters. But I'm veyr happy to postpone my thinking until his retirement...
     
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