Lewis' chin is one of the best ever in the HWs

Superb analyses Swag!
I did not think about something like the speed of Foreman working to his advantage.
I did not know the specifics of the body punches effect.
Still, Frazier was rocked or dropped by a few fighters of lesser ilk than Foreman like Bruce-his ability to take chronic beatings exceeded his capacity for single shots.

You mentioned everything but the obvious, Big George was one of the hardest hitters ever.

 

Thanks for the complements! The reason I didn't mention Foreman's power is it's very redundant. It goes without saying he's one of the hardest punchers ever and probably the second hardest of that era.

Also, the reason I made that post was to explain why Foreman's punches landed particularly flush on Frazier in a way they did not against Ali.

 

Excellent points and thanks for the link to the article - just finished reading it.

They don’t write like they used to and you couldn’t want for details - all the relevant info was provided along with on point analysis.

How about Mercante admitting to his having to point Joe toward the neutral corner where Foreman was waiting after each KD - given how dazed and disoriented Joe was?

I can understand a ref giving the Champ a chance to come back but Mercante described the very symptoms for stopping the fight right then and there. Forget about how many fingers am I holding up - do you even know where your opponent is? Here, I’ll point you to him. Poor Joe.

Interesting and well rationalised theory on George’s slower punching - totally on board with what you said and I’ll add that, at best, Foreman also displayed incredible timing and judgment with many of his big punches - as he also displayed against Norton.

The jab feint is so valuable - especially if you had a jab like Liston or Foreman.

Firmly establish the jab first, make it score and make it hurt, then manipulate your opponent into position for other shots by feigning to jab - they’ll move because they don’t want to get hit by that ramrod again.

There’s a great YouTube vid highlighting Liston’s employment of the jab feint to brilliant advantage..

No, Ali didn’t escape Zaire unscathed that’s for sure but he took it the body that much worse than the head though George still snuck through a few bell ringers.

Foreman’s power goes without saying and Joe’s style and aggressive accent only served to compound the effect of that power.

Finally, I agree that Cleve gets a bum rap re his chin which I’ve argued against in detail before.

We’ll just have to keep fighting the good fight Swag.

 

Forgot to mention in my initial post regarding Foreman’s handspeed. Holyfield made a very similar comment claiming Foreman was so slow that when he’d slip the punch and go back to where he was, Foreman was so slow, his punch would still be coming and end up nailing him.

 

I agree. I'm going to show you another article re Frazier's conditioning.

Yeah that was ridiculous. So much for this ATG ref.

Yeah I forgot to mention Holyfield's similar account in my post. Will try to find a source.

I agree. All this talk about Foreman being unskilled are absolute rubbish.

I agree. Nobody did it like these two. From memory I think Louis used to employ similar tactics, but admittedly it's been a while since I've seen his fights.

Would love to see that video.

I agree. Foreman landed potentially fight ending shots on Ali multiple times, and Ali seemed virtually unphased. Frazier actually took a couple fight ending shots and combs himself in both fights (some of which without even going down) as well

I agree whole heartedly but I also think Frazier's decline played a part (not that an FOTC Frazier pulls out a victory against Foreman).

"His last two times in the ring against Ron Stander and Terry Daniels suggested to some people that the champion might be slipping a bit."

[url]St. Petersburg Times - Google News Archive Search[/url]

People's main argument for Williams having a poor chin seems to be on the basis of his post shooting career and the
relative quickness Liston put him down. What they don't understand is anyone else in the era who fought Liston in the same manner would've fallen just as quick if not quicker. He didn't approach the fight like Machen, who's main objective was to run and survive. Williams came there to win, and as such went toe to toe with Liston, a surefire recipe for a brutal KO.

 

Pretty sure this is the vid I’ve seen, brief but on point:-
[url]
https://youtu.be/5ZpfQfBaC_g[/url]

Haven’t had the chance to read the article yet but I definitely will - thanks heaps.

Basically agree with all that you’ve said - without saying anything else, Jamaica Joe was definitely a diminished version of FOTC Joe - in mind and body.

I was going to say the exact same thing re the perceptions of Williams’ chin - those perceptions being narrowly based on the Liston fights and post gun shot career, most notably the multiple KDs and eventual 3rd stoppage at the hands of an absolute prime Ali.

Like you said, anyone else would’ve been KO’d by Liston given the same circumstances. Liston was a power puncher, that’s what he did, knocked people out - including the well chinned.

Less informed might not even know some of the later KOs/stoppages suffered when Cleve was well past it anyway as well being physically impaired.

In balance, I know a lot of people hadn’t seen Cleve’s fight vs Chuvalo until it became more available in recent years - and upon seeing same, many were impressed by the durability exhibited by a post gun shot wound, 38 yo Williams.

All things equal, The Big Cat was no push over.

 

Hahaha! Not quite what I meant but will check that out!

 

These points are perennially vital in any analysis of the Foreman-Frazier fight. It was so much more than just a brutish beatdown, Foreman (though at base a monster puncher) used boxing science to help him beat the undefeated Frazier.

 

Tell Choklab that. Ha Ha.

 

Oscar Bonavena on Sept 21 1966, twice in one round.

 

I will. I just hope it doesn’t cause him to “feint”.

It’s okay. I’m a Dad. I have a licence to make bad jokes. Fire em out like hundreds of pellets from a shot gun, surely you’ll get a hit every now and then…then again, perhaps not even.

 

I am a Dad too, 21 years.

 

I’ll never forget the births. They were tough. Long labours.

To get through it, I had to pinch some of the gas that was meant for the Mrs - a bit of a tug o war going on there but she finally relented.

The Dads are often ignored during the painful process. We feel it too.

It was said to me “You try sh*tting out an 8-10 lb bowling ball”.

It did make me think: “Why would I want to do that?”.

 

Ha Ha, I agree. Bowling Balls hit pins and strikes or even Gutter Balls too. Ha Ha.

 

Nice joke.