Is GGG a top 10 Middleweight of all time

I'm thinking he'll play the great lower weight fighter Abe Atell

In Greb's case I do not. Not with that many fighters have HoF members and contenders! In fact I say none do! Greb is unique in that regard. In general I shy away from ranking fighters that high with no film.

The guys you listed have a lot of looses and draws to men not in the hall of fame and not all of them were good were even loses to good contenders! This is a reason why GGGs is better. I find that sound logic.

 

To be fair to you, you've already unintentionally started to answer my question in this thread. You ranked Greb (who Gibbons beat) and Burley (who Williams beat x 3) in your top 20 at MW and didnt rank anyone GGG beat. So, you view Gibbons best win and Williams best 3 wins, all as better than any GGG win.

With Jack Dillon (who Gibbons also beat) are you saying you rank him below anyone GGG beat, or that you dont know enough about him to confidently rank him?

 

How could you possibly be a great fighter by never beating a great fighter?

 

I wasn't responding to the thread question in my reply to McGrain. How you rate fighters is your prerogative, of course. I wasn't calling that into question. I am confident enough in my own ability to call fights in the present day, and find H2H the most fun, educational and rewarding. The flaws in my system could also be present in any resume-based ranking because those often boil down to arbitrarily assigned points or other people's opinions.

Now, on to your second paragraph, which is the most relevant to the point I raised and a point of personal interest for me, a purported 204lbs on a light heavyweight is a very glaring outlier. I say "purported" because this was only mentioned on the broadcast and not displayed officially; I do suspect this to be accurate.

Zurdo had been weighing in at 182 when he was 23. He's larger than all his notable peers at the weight- larger than the other, often talked about light heavyweight when these conversations crop up in Beterbiev, who is on record to also have weighed 182 (albeit in his 30's and that was in the morning of his fight).

I think you can still fairly compare Beterbiev, Bivol, Kovalev with the likes of Tunney, Saad, Johnson and Foster. Smith Jr. and Ramirez are bigger and so is Michael Spinks (likely to a lesser degree). Jones Jr., Toney, Moore, and Charles I would put below the first group.

Again, many eras, many different sized "light heavyweights". I grate against sweeping generalizations that hand wave modern middleweights away as light heavyweights, especially from people who admit to not follow modern boxing. It's a pet peeve.

 

Ketchel often fought at or around 155, yes. He also weighed in at 170 on more than one occasion. This, again, was in his early 20's when GGG couldn't have weighed more than 163, and also "often weighed at or around 156".

I couldn't find a source for Ketchel weighing 155 for Johnson. Perhaps you can provide one?

This content is protected

 

If your argument is that some modern day fighters will weigh similar in the ring to their counterparts from the same division in the same day era, then I agree that can happen. I've read Bivol as 181lbs in the ring. I wouldn't be surprised if Foster was around that for his LHW title fights.

If your argument is that some modern fighters are naturally a similar size to boxers who campaigned in the same weight division in previous eras, then I agree too. Beterviev is certainly no bigger naturally that M Spinks was.

My argument is that fighters of today are on average roughly 10% heavier in the ring than their counterparts from the same division in same day eras were, in fights contested in the same division. This is 1 of many reasons why fantasy H2H between boxers who competed in the same weight division across vastly different eras are meaningless for me, it's not comparing like for like. That doesnt mean it cant be fun for some to speculate, though.

 

If this criteria for greatness had been applied absolutely since the start of boxing, then by definition there will have never been a great boxer.

Consistent domination over a decent period of time over the best fighters of an era can make a fighter great, imo. Neither Tommy Ryan nor George Dixon beat a p4p all time great, yet both are all time p4p greats, imo. Bob Foster never beat a great LHW, yet is himself a great LHW, imo.

 

You might want to check this out.

Ketchel wore cowboy boots and a coat for the promotions.

[url]https://lelands.com/bids/1909-jack-johnson-v-stanley-ketchel-fight-program[/url]

 

The win column of Golovkin isn't that far ahead of Billy Joe Saunders

GGG top wins:
Danny Jacobs , David Lemieux , Sergiy Derevyanchenko , Danny Geale , Kelly Brook , Martin Murray , Murata.

BJS top wins:
John Ryder , David Lemieux , Chris Eubank Jr , Andy Lee , Martin Murray , Nick Blackwell , Spike O Sullivian.

Golovkin in order to fight soup cans like Wade , Rolls and Szermenta ducked Charlo, Andrande , Lara and Saunders.

And he ducked Andre Ward to fight fight David Lemieux.

 

Ward retired young and when was there a confirmed purse and talks for GGG vs Ward? Links please. After getting a gifted decision over Kovalev rematched him and this time " Tko'd " him. Ward called it a career and retired at 33 year old and 32 fights. Ward had more left in him for sure.

" The bout appeared close to even on the scorecards entering round eight. The end came abruptly. Ward, getting inside with power, landed an overhand right to the head of Kovalev at close range, who got hurt. The fight ended in controversy shortly thereafter on the ropes, when Ward landed three hooks to the lower body which appeared to be either borderline low blows or low blows. Kovalev doubled over on the ropes, bending over. The referee awarded Ward a TKO win. Kovalev had complained a number of times about Ward's body punches beforehand even though they appeared to land on the beltline. Jonny Nelson noted "Towards the end, even if the punches Ward landed were borderline, Kovalev should have hit Ward back in the same place. We did not get the camera angle to see where the punches landed exactly at the end, the blows were borderline from close, the referee should have given Kovalev a count and a breather." Paul Malingnaggi stated "The stoppage was terrible. Kovalev was up in the fight a little bit. Kovalev was not hurt more than other guys. They (Ward's punches) were definitely borderlines. Kovalev was fading, and Ward was going to win." However, Kovalev, doubled over along the ropes."

 

Agreed you could say Holmes never actually beat a great fighter during his career, apart from Ali which most people don't count. Yet most people still consider him an ATG Heavyweight.

 

I agree with the above, in principle.

However, I’m not sure that the point made about ‘never beating a great fighter’ was actually suggesting this factor be an entirely singular focus when rating a boxer. Nor do I think “a great fighter” necessarily has to be one, who features on “p4p all time great” listings.

Moreover, a “Consistent domination" by a boxer is no less subject to an evaluation of quality than is the highest bar (best win) achieved by a boxer. That is, in lengthy, successful runs against all-comers, the general rule of thumb should be that the quality of opposition remains a more significant measure of greatness than the longevity itself.

Perhaps only a handful of truly exceptional runs might force a departure from this line of thinking and you happen to mention some of the finest examples of 'dominance' with references to George Dixon, Tommy Ryan and Bob Foster. Although, even then, it’s not like the ledgers of Dixon, Ryan and Foster are bereft of a quality result, is it?

 

Bingo. Holmes certainly never beat a remotely near prime ATG but he has to be considered an ATG, absolutely. Loads of ATG's didn't beat other ATG's.

Of course there's levels to ATG status as well.

 

As far as H2H yes. Plus look at his number of title defenses. And in reality he did beat Canelo in their first fight. A draw would have been fine in their 2nd fight but I still think he won that one. Without the BS corruption… he would have set the new middleweight consecutive title defense mark.

Arguments can be made back and forth as far as resume wise if he’s top 10. But as far as H2H he’s DEFINITELY top 10. The guy was a beast in his prime. And one of the all time great chins too.

 

I would argue hes top 10 H2H all time with fighters like....

Sugar Ray Robinson
Bernard Hopkins
Marvin Hagler
Michael Nunn
Carlos Monzon
Roy Jones Jr
James Toney
Mike McCallum
Julian Jackson
Sumbu Kalambay
Gerald McClellan
Thomas Hearns
Dick Tiger
Emile Griffith
Harry Greb
Tony Zale
Stanley Ketchel
Charles Burley
Holman Williams

Not a certainty Golovkin beats any of these names, and i'd make a few of them a considerable favourite over Golovkin.

Golovkin hasn't had one win on his resume, that suggests he beats any of the names above.