Is GGG a top 10 Middleweight of all time

I'd guess 2 things:

1) GGG's average in the ring fighting weight for his MW title defences are closer to Moore and Charles's for fights they had contested at 175lbs, than Hagler's, for fights he had contested at 160lbs.
2) For the time he competed, GGG's in the ring fighting weight was less than average for MW word titlests.

 

But my question to you is what is the difference between Michalczewski and Golovkin ? Why is Golovkin considered a great and Michalczewski isn't ? Hardly anything separates them regarding resume, apart from Michalczewski has the better single win of the two fighters in Virgil Hill, and also made more title defences at 23.

The logic i'm using is that no one rates Michalczewski in top 10, and you yourself don't rate Michalczewski a great. But my question is why not ? If we're using the same logic for Michalczewski surely it applies to Golovkin aswell ? Their careers are almost identical pretty much regarding resume and achievements.

As for Bob Foster i rate him pretty highly H2H, but his resume is also kind of so-so. I think Golovkin is pretty much the same, although i wouldn't confidently say Golovkin ranks H2H as a top 10 Middleweight with fighters like Hagler, Nunn, Monzon, SRR, Toney, Jones, Tiger, Kalambay, Greb, etc.

 

Well he's the same size walking around as Golovkin. We would also need to accept Hearns as having the weight advantage over Hagler if walking around weights are to be taken seriously.

No, I don't believe Golovkin in his 30's could fight at 154 in the ring. But I do also accept 170 as a good weight for Ketchel. Greb fought as low as 156 at a similar age to Ketchel but also weighed 170 in the same year and 178 less than a year after that.

 

1) We disagree. GGG's weight trajectory from the amateurs more closely follow Hagler than Charles. I suspect Hagler's in-ring weight would have been closer to GGG's 168-171 than GGG is to Charles.
2) Because of Danny Jacobs and Chavez Jr.? What about Zbik, Pirog, Martinez, Pavlik, Taylor, Spinks, Wright?

 

That does not prove they weren't the same size. Look at Greb from the age of 20 to 25! Look at Ketchel before the Johnson match! I don't think context is being applied here. There's their schedules to consider, whether or not Golovkin was wearing clothes, et cetera, et cetera.

 

1)
I've found GGG on the night reported weights of 168lbs vs Proska, 170lbs vs Munroe, 173lbs vs Rubio and 173.6lbs vs Martirosyan. An average of 171.15lbs.

Hagler had 14 fights from Minter to Leonard. He averaged 158.91lbs. If he was going to be 164+lbs later that evening I suspect he'd have been bang on or closer to 160lbs. Certainly closer than the 157lbs he was vs Hamsho. I'd guess Hagler at an average of somewhere between 159 & 162lbs in the ring in his MW title fights, 9-12lbs less than GGG.

I'd guess Moore 174-177lbs in the ring for his LHW title fights, 3-6lbs heavier.

So yeah, whilst we are in danger of veering into splitting hairs territory and my Hagler & Moore guesses are exactly that, just guesses, I'm confident GGG's on the night weights in his title fights weren't substantially closer to Hagler's for MW title fights than they were for Moore's LHW title fights. GGG's on the night weight is almost certainly not more comparable with pre 80's MWs than pre-80's LHWs, and is probably less so.

2)
Pavlik 178lbs vs Martinez 167lbs
Zbik 165lbs vs Chavez Jnr 180lbs
Pirog 170lbs vs Jacobs 170lbs
Hopkins 168lbs vs Taylor 171lbs

I can't find anything for Cory Spinks, though he was a natural WW.

Average of the above 8, from fights involving fighters selected by you = 171.13lbs, so pretty much identical to GGG.

A few other MW fights I've found:

All vs GGG - Proska 166lbs, Matriosyan 170lbs, Munroe 172lbs, Rubio 181lbs, Jacobs 182lbs.
Quillan 170lbs vs Rosado 175lbs
Cotto (unreported) vs Geale 182lbs (admittedly in his clothes) in a fight contested at 158lbs
Korobov 173lbs vs Uzcategui 175lbs
I'll even give you 1 at LMW - Smith 172lbs vs Munguia 176lbs

Average of the above 12, selected by me = 174.5lbs.

Canelo was reported at 173.5lbs in the ring vs Trout age 22. He was clearly heavier in his MW title fights than that.

Having done this research I concede GGG wasn't a small MW by his own era. He was average to just slightly below average, going off reported on the night weights.

 

Ok, I found a website that listed on the fight night weights of pro boxers. Beginning with Dec 2018 & working backwards, I captured the weights of the most recent 40 male fighters. This is the 1st website I found & so totally random. 40 is a decent sample size. I'm not sure of what the rules are on here as to posting links to other websites. If you doubt me, I'll take snapshots of my spreadsheet and post them here (if I can figure out how to do so!) or DM you a link to the website, assuming that's permitted.

Combined weight at weigh in = 5,479.05lbs; Total weight on the night = 5,952.75lbs. An increase of 8.645659%

Now I'll admit, whilst I don't think that supports your claim my "roughly 10%" estimate was misleading, my view has shifted slightly as a result of our debate. I feel more knowledgeable on the subject now than I did before our exchange. That outcome is a sign of a good debate in my opinion, so thanks for your time & efforts.

 

I already know of the website you are likely referencing. It's included in my data.

I'll address this in full later on. I'm working from home right now. In the post you're replying to, I didn't include Pavlik vs Martinez for Pavlik because he was already past it. I didn't include Taylor for Hopkins, nor Pirog for Jacobs (he was bigger in his prime).

These also aren't all reported weights. Jacobs at 182 has never been confirmed. You're likely referring to Abel Sanchez' estimate of Jacobs' weight for Golovkin. Jacobs himself claims 176.

 

Can you point me to his weights for Munroe, Rubio, and Martirosyan? I know he was 170 for Macklin and Lemieux, and 171 for Wade.

 

Jacobs 182lbs was off his Wiki page. May well have been an estimate. As I said previously Jacobs missed the 170lbs rehydration limit vs Canelo by more than 3lbs on the morning of the fight and under the terms of the contract was subsequently fined $1M. He would have killed himself draining weight that morning to limit that fine. I suspect he would have been close to 180lbs in the ring. 182lbs vs GGG without a rehydration clause seems a reasonable estimate, though I'm happy to concede it's just that, an estimate.

I'll end our exchange here, as we've hijacked a thread about GGG's all time standing at MW and made it about how much weight modern boxers add after weigh ins (I acknowledge it was me that 1st addressed you on the point) and I can only see this veering to hair splitting territory. You called me out on my casual, passing remark "roughly 10%" weight increase estimate, made based on anecdotal information I'd heard. As someone who had clearly already researched large volumes of reported on the night weights, you estimated 5-8%, the average of your range being 6.5%, which was c.2.1% out from the average random sample I took, compared to my c1.3% out. Yet, I've conceded my view has altered slightly because of our exchange......

My initial and underlying point stands and is demonstrably, quantifiablly, irrefutable - boxers today on average weigh substantially different in the ring than boxers from 50+ years ago did when campaigning in the same weight division. I dont say that because I'm driven by an agenda (btw, I'm yet to work out what agenda someone referencing that truism is supposed to have), I have 1 reason and 1 reason for saying it, because it's true.

 

Sure. I'll DM you a link to the website. It was a different iteration of the website all my weights (aside from the Jacob's 182lbs vs GGG) came from, which I also suspect you've used for your source of reported weights.

 

Forgive my ignorance, I've a vague recollection of reading a warning given to a member for posting a link to a another website and so wasn't sure on the rules.

I've sent Quick Cash the DM, but happy to post here too. The website I used is - http://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2014/01/fight-night-boxing-weights-list-of.html

I entered the weigh in & rehydration weights of all 40 x male boxers listed in the calendar year of 2018. This was the 1st website I found, so the most recent 40 seemed both random and a decent enough sample size to be representative of an average. An average increase of 8.65% is a little less than I'd have previously thought, but within what I'd deem a reasonable range of my "roughly 10%" that Quick Cash challenged.