Marciano vs Frazier: Who had the better chin?

I define ring IQ as the ability to have awareness of the ring: literally keeping mind of the size of the ring, being mindful of how many steps you need to take to avoid getting stuck on the ropes, knowing your ref and what he permits etc. It also refers to figuratively being aware of subtle things within the ring such as picking up on your opponents habits and styles and being smart enough to make adjustments so that you can continue executing your own gameplan. Any boxer regardless of style/height/physical talents, etc can have high ring IQ. Part of it is simply become more experienced/mature as you improve as a boxer.

Being technically adept falls under the technique category in my stats. It's simply how good you are at throwing a jab, moving your feet in synch with your fists, having proper leverage and snap with a punch, etc. Of course this keeps in mind boxers may use a technique differently depending on the style or region. I know what cuban style looks like so I'll judge someone from there differently from a rough and tough Philly guy.

If it's a h2h matchup and you're picking both boxers at their best/in their primes, how a boxer looks as a washed up 38 year old who got knocked out is irrelevant to the conversation. Why would I even bother using that fight to collect data for my stats?

Durability certainly doesn't go out of the window, are you insane? Not everyone is built equally. Do you think Amir Khan could take punches as well as Julio Caesar Chavez if he simply got better at anticipating shots? Some guys have glass jaws, some are in the middle, others have granite chins. That isn't even up for debate. You're being obstuse.

 

Lewis did hit harder with Tyson with the right hand and uppercut. He splattered Ruddock in 2 rounds and Tyson threw everything but the kitchen sink at Ruddock. Did way more damage to Bruno and stopped Tucker when Tyson couldn't.

Tyson had more power in his combinations and with the left hook. The power rating is based on overall punching power, not individual shots.

Tyson had a good chin. 7/10 isn't horrible that's way above average. It was solid and he was good at taking individual shots, even big ones from guys like Bruno, Smith, Ruddock, etc, but few opponents followed up with more than one shot. Most of them were too scared to commit or lacked the finesse to string punches together on a slippery short guy with good head movement. It wasn't until Douglas that we saw someone who had both the balls and the skill to land consistently on Tyson, and the result was a KO. Douglas wasn't exactly a murderous puncher, he was average to above average at best. Hoylfield wasn't a very big hitter either and stopped Tyson with sheer volume and accuracy. Neither of them would have been able to stop a granite chinned opponent. At best you can bump Tyson up to an 8/10 chin but any higher than that would be fanboyism and not a good reflection on reality.

As for heart, that is a boxer's ability to recover after being buzzed, rocked, or knocked down. The higher the number, the more quickly they can recover. Tyson often just went into his shell when badly hurt or him and his opponent mutually agreed to clinch and take a break. He ever got off the floor to win. In other words, it was hard to hurt him in the first, but once you did badly hurt him he rarely came back to win.

As for Lewis, his heart rating might honestly be too low since he got hurt by guys like Vitali, Mercer, Briggs, etc and survived the round and won without being dropped. He recovered well.

 

Frazier in my opinion. Although it cannot be proven exactly. Frazier getting up 6 times from Foreman's punches is a feat. Who knows if Marciano would have stood up all 6 times. We saw that Marciano also got up after a knockdown, but not after such a beating.

 

it’s a sweeping statement. I appreciate your effort but Boxing cannot work like top trumps. Strategy always exposes IQ. The best boxing IQ can still succumb to the right strategy. These blanket statements like ring IQ are akin to “style advantage”. It’s for non participants to describe something they don’t understand. You can use them to describe ability or experience. But please avoid using it. Ring craft is ring craft. Or experience. Ring IQ is kind of blanket. It’s not an explanation.

Amir Khan had very poor perception. Awful in fact. It’s no coincidence that he never saw any of the punches that laid him out. Figuratively speaking Kahn Never rode a shot in his life. That’s why he wobbled. It was because He was only concerned with getting his own punches off. Wasn’t looking at what came back.

very very sweeping. You cannot decide upon “being smart enough to make adjustments” without researching technical flaws the opponent was known to have or strategies the other fighter was known to employ. Very hypothetical.

And glass jawed guys go over because they don’t see what’s coming. They get caught as they open up. They buy a feint. Then whoops.

And great fighters don’t have glass jaws or poor perception anyway. So the glass jaw types you refer to are not part of the discussion.

 

They're my stats. Take them or leave them. We'll just have to disagree.

Doesn't matter. His chin still wasn't good at all. You conveniently avoided my question. Do you think Khan would have been able to take a punch as well as Chavez with better anticipation, yes or no?

I mean in general does the boxer have ring awareness and do they make adjustments in the middle of fights or not. Mayweather did both all the time in every fight, he wouldn't suddenly have poor ring IQ if he had to fight Camacho.

Stop it. A glass jawed opponent would not ever become great at taking hits just because they get better at seeing things. Tex Cobb was horrible at seeing things coming and he ate punches from guys like Shavers and Holmes without getting KOd.

Floyd Patterson was a great fighter with a glass jaw. Nearly every point you're making is wrong, but I'm used to it.

 

Honestly I'm not sure if Marciano gets up that many times against Foreman even though I think Marciano possibly had a better chin than Frazier. I think the main issue is Marciano could be very crude, had worse defense, and had the same problem Frazier had of not being able to fight backing off or using his legs to survive. Marciano is also smaller and had less bulk than Frazier to be able to absorb shots. He would have been giving up anywhere from 30-40 lbs against Foreman and that's a recipe for disaster.

 

it’s clear Kahn would take a better punch if he ever saw what was coming his way. Would he take a punch as well as Chavez can never be proven. Chavez had more focus. He knew what was coming his way. He could exchange and think several moves ahead within a fire fight. Moved his head. As he punched julio is preparing for the return and next counter. And that is a big difference to a fighter who could never exchange and was vulnerable swapping blows.

Kahn had none of that.

The punch that knocks anyone out is the punch you don’t see.

I appreciate your mention of Tex cobb but he’s a bigger stronger guy who braced himself quite a bit. One who depended on smothering the effects and leverage of the punches coming his way. He’s expecting more to come his way to start with. You are not allowing for this.

And I am telling you I don’t think the ability to make adjustments in the middle of a fight is something you can rate on a zero to ten basis since strategies are different for each assignment. You are never going g to know until they meet if a fighter can adapt to overcome a technical flaw. Or that he isn’t first hurt enough to affect the result of the fight. You have to factor in corner instructions. The prepared strategy etc etc. it’s just not a zero to ten thing.

Floyd appeared a lot more fragile because he was a middleweight in the Olympics. He was fighting heavyweights his whole life and probably in the wrong weight class. Can we write him off as glass jawed? A great fighter like that? In relation to who? Other fighters who probably fought in the wrong division?

The guys who knocked him out had all time power. Proven hitters at ATG level.

merry Christmas just the same.

 

No, Khan would never in a million years have a chin as good as Chavez because it comes down to biology. Some people aren't good at taking hits even with good anticipation.

Not always. Wilder hit Stiverne with punches he saw coming and still knocked him out. You don't know what you're talking about. Stiverne literally anticipated and tried to block and still got dropped.

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Tex didn't ALWAYS brace himself he got hit by PLENTY of shots he didn't see coming and didn't go down. Holmes has blinding hand speed with laser like precision smacking him with shots he didn't see and he never even took a knee. Some guys are more durable than others. Why are you arguing about this? Do you think the only difference between Tex Cobb and David Price is that one boxer simply braces himself more often? Price had a terrible chin and Cobb has a granite one. It's that simple. Just like some guys punch hard naturally and others are feather fisted no matter how hard they train or try to improve their technique.

I think you can measure it on a scale of 1-10. If a boxer is good at making adjustments on a regular basis then they have a higher rating on the scale. As I said, Mayweather is one of the best examples of this. He isn't suddenly going to become a low IQ boxer if he went in a time machine and fought Camacho. Mayweather fought all kinds of boxers of different styles across many weight classes and made adjustments with good ring awareness in basically every single fight. He was a genius at adaptation. To assume he'd be completely clueless and unable to adjust against an unknown opponent from rounds 1-12 is completely ignorant and it's obvious you never watched a Mayweather fight if that's what you think. Is it possible? Yes. Is the most likely outcome? Absolutely not. The odds are extremely low and not worth discussing in a fantasy fight.

It doesn't matter if Floyd moved up from a lower division. He had a glass jaw, which completely destroys your argument. He was an ATG. Just admit you were wrong.

Usyk, James Toney, and Ezzard Charles moved up from middleweight in the amateurs and their chins held up at HW just fine. Yet someone like Bob Foster moving up from light heavyweight got splattered at HW. Which, once again, proves you're speaking nonsense. If your argument had any merit then every singls guy moving up from a lower division would have a glass jaw and that simply isn't the case, not even remotely. Some guys have weak chin, some have average, some have granite. Get over it.

Pete Rademecher was not a proven elite with ATG power and he knocked Patterson down. In fact, he was making his professional debut.

 

I agree biology plays a huge part but so does exposure to resistance and anticipation. In the literal sense the biology part is the biggest factor. But within a fight situation things don’t always work out that biology is going to play the biggest part.

things are not so black and white in boxing. it’s only that simple if you tie the two of them up and blindfold them.

of course it’s not true that every single guy who moved up from lower division wound up with a glass jaw the next division up.. I was simply explaining Floyd was that bit more delicate because he was undersized. So that when he was caught he looked worse. but in saying that, what do you make of Floyd himself proving to have a granite chin some of the time? Patterson survived Bonavena and Chuvalos best punches didn’t he? Quarry flattened some decent fighters but couldn’t keep Patterson down.

 

Ok but I wasn't saying biology is the only factor. You were straight up denying biology played a role and suggested a boxer could have a Cobb/McCall level chin just by improving anticipation. Why are you pretending that isn't how we got to this conversation?

It is when the subject is chins. Price and Cobb are like night and day and I'm shocked this is even a discussion.

The fact that not every small guy moving up has a glass jaw destroys your argument that Patterson was a bit more fragile at Heavyweight due to moving up. It actually proves my point that every boxers has a unique biology and chin regardless of weight class. You can even have two guys who are blood relatives training in the same gym and yet one guy is durable yet the other one is fragile (Wladmir and Vitali).

Patterson surviving Chuvalo and Bonavena was likely due to style clashes but there's no point in me elaborating since you're like a moon landing denier whenever the subject of styles comes up.

 

Marciano never saw near the competition that Frazier did. 40 year old guys like Moore and Walcott dropped him and he struggled and beat them by wearing them down. You comparing them to the fearsome prime Foreman??? Or near prime Muhammad Ali ??? You must be coming off drugs.

 

it was not my intention to imply a denial of biology having a role. Never said that. All practitioners develop muscle memory. Anticipation develops like muscle memory and is worked into this too. It works alongside the biology.

we are all biologically unique yes. The levels an individuals can adapt and transform themselves under situations is incredible too. And recent sports science has increased this much further. Who would believe all those gangly oafs we always had would one day develop into modern super heavyweights?

blood relatives can develop at different rates and favour different drills, develop separate muscle memory too. They can have different instincts. Different personalities. Different levels of focus.

 

I would think most historians believe guys like Walcott and Moore would have been problematic for Frazier too.

 

I'm not talking about anticipation. You were denying that some people are inherently more durable than others from birth. How good someone's chin is has nothing to do with reflexes, muscle memory, or anticipation.

It's no different from how some people are naturally heavy handed power punchers or extremely fast of foot. The coach can only do so much to improve power, hand speed, or durability.

Way off topic.

Right, and Wladmir's chin is drastically different from his brothers despite sharing a significant amount of DNA while ALSO training in the same gym, so obviously Wladmir being less durable than his brother has little do with anticipation or training, he was simply born with a weaker chin.

 

I think simply having a weaker chin, whilst in itself a fair and likely answer, could equally be too simple an answer.

Two brothers. One with more technique. The other less technical but more instinctive.

What if Wladimir, having the more advanced skill set, was more prone to concentrating on too many things at once? Vitali, being more singleminded, had far less to think about. Subconsciously keeping things simple meant he was more aware and in control of his surroundings?

There is the argument that the more complex something gets the more errors occur.