Is George Foreman the most overrated fighter in history?

Only other person I'd favor is Liston and even that's close to 50-50. Ali is my only lock.

 

I wouldn't argue too hard with anyone selecting Ali's win over Foreman, as their pick for the greatest victory in boxing.

 

I have to agree here. Foreman was considered unbeatable after slaying both Frazier and Norton, and Ali was seen as way past it, doomed.

 

And that is precisely why I rate the win so high. Ali had no business winning on paper. He had lost to the two men who got wrecked by Foreman with ease. His speed and reflexes had gone down a few notches. Ironically, many thought he didn't have the punching power to hurt Foreman and there were still doubts due to the Liston fiascos in people's minds and he didn't manage to even drop Frazier and Norton (lots of ABC logic that people even today suffer from). People naturally assumed his only chance would be to either fight a cautious defensive bout or stick and move hoping to win on points (which was actually Ali's plan A, but realized Foreman was too good at cutting off the ring and he burned through too much energy keeping away in the hot muggy arena). On top of that, people questioned Ali's ability to even survive and take the punches since he has been dropped by Frazier, Cooper, etc while Foreman looked like an unstoppable freight train without even taking a knee once.

It just goes to show you don't know what will happen until the fight actually happens. It wasn't just the fact he won, but the incredibly dramatic fashion fighting through the pain and outsmarting the younger, fresher, more powerful, undefeated champion. His own corner looked gloomy before the fight and Ali was the one who had to cheer them up. Howard Cossel sounded like a man giving a eulogy during the broadcast and was deeply concerned that the fight was even made. It was just so crazy and people thought Ali himself was crazy for even trying. He honestly could have retired and still would have had a hall of Fame worthy career, but something within Ali wouldn't allow for him to turn down this incredible challenge and he had to put his money where his mouth was after calling himself the greatest. I think he definitely cashed that check he wrote with that victory.

 

I have to say that sums up my feelings perfectly.

 

That was beautifully put Vic - “selling his second coming at the expense of his first”.

As to the value of such quotes (Ali claiming Ken would “eat him up”) - I don’t put a lot of stock in them any which way.

They either agree or don’t agree with conclusions you’ve drawn from source evidence otherwise.

Therefore the interpretation of such quotes becomes subjective and malleable - and it then becomes easy to assign either a sincere or ulterior motive - depending on which way you choose to take the quote.

As you said “not to contradict” the great man himself but…..

And I agree, prime Ali would’ve had a much easier time vs Ken, not least due to his prime mobility. When he could and did dance against Ken, Ali looked very good and it’s easy to extrapolate a far easier fight with a prime Ali dancing for the greater part of the fight.

However, it would still be interesting to see what semblance of stylistic issues might still possibly remain for Muhammad vs Ken.

Foreman vs Frazier is a more extreme example for comparison. We know Joe was past his best vs George, not in the greatest condition at any rate and somewhat complacent.

However, the stylistic advantage we saw was so pronounced, many see Foreman still emphatically prevailing over an absolute prime Frazier.

As I said, that’s an extreme example. Ali vs Norton is different and unique in its own way - with different nuances and features to take on board and analyse.

Returning to Ali’s claim re Ken, if Ali had said his prime self would’ve kicked Kenny’s a**, many would agree.

However, it would be the same situation in terms of interpretation/treatment.

You couldn’t really proffer Ali’s own opinion as “evidence” per se, his opinion would simply be aligned with what you concluded anyway.

Btw Vic, I’ve always been meaning to ask you:-

“Do you? And do you do it a lot and do it big?



Gamble that is.

 

Liston would be one of very few with a chance. He might be able to play aggressive matador and get inside Foreman's blows with his own. Joe Louis too, one of them would be finished within 4 rounds.

 

There was a big British, Jamaican fella that might do ok. AKA the Big Dog..

 

Possibly. He'd be on a list of 5 or so. I wouldn't have him out and out favorite.

 

Probably a tossup

 

I could jive with that. I think i might narrowly, very narrowly, favor George to get him early. Lewis would have to use all his skill and savvy while at the same time resisting fatigue while working quite hard. I think Lewis' best chance might be (if he could) to land a huge right early to put George into neutral gear and induce some caution. Yeah i think Lewis would have to impose himself to a degree in order to not only win but survive. Along with Louis and Liston he'd in in the three i'd give the best chance to.

 

Yea I was thinking that LL would need to come out aggressive and land that right hand. Even if Foreman takes it he would have to respect Lewis after that. Just enough to lose the edge of his aggression.
If Lennox get the time and room to box I think he's got the advantage.

 

I used to favor Louis but I don’t know. I don’t think he has the chin. Give me Louis’s Pre-Schmeling chin with the best version of Louis and I might narrowly favor him.

 

One can certainly find ways for both to have their chance.

 

Haha! Love your style Pug!
I think that my opinion on young Ali beating Norton is based around what you said about the speed. We have to remember that 70s Ali was slower, and to my eyes, had less stamina than his 60s self…and he still matched up well with Norton.
People say…including myself…that Norton was a stylistic nightmare for 70s Ali, but the fights between them in the whole were close affairs. Now imagine a faster, fitter, more dynamic Ali fighting Norton. Hmm…I can’t see any other result other than a clear points win for the brash young kid.
But as you kinda touched on, I’m talking prime Ali, not necessarily the young, sometimes careless, greenhorn version!

And yes Pug, I do it very big with a lot of success, but not too much these days as I find that I don’t need to do it a lot to keep me satisfied.

Gamble I mean haha!