If Muhammad Ali had retired after Manila?

Well in fairness he'd be (in 18 days) 81 now so him still being around ain't a sure bet.

 

I would probably have him about the same to be honest.

His fights past this point effectively cancel each other out.

 

How do you figure a close fight can be a robbery one way or the other?

 

If he'd quit after Manila he might have lived out his life span closer to whole. But maybe the way he went out was his destiny. We will never know.

I don't think it would have affected his legacy, though. His hay was in the barn just like Joe Louis' hay was in the barn before his last 10 desultory, taxman-driven outings.

I'm not going to debate the Shavers decision. I've looked through the archives and seen all the arguments, which IMO stem from (a.) people's views of Ali, including resentments of his pedestal; or (b.) what they personally prioritize as worthy of being scored superior during a fight.

I will say that the 15th round may have been Ali's last real gasp of competence, the last time he was able to summon a semblance of what made him great.

 

His brother has Parkinson's Disease and he had 12 fights. And we now know most of the damage a boxer incurs is during sparring because they spar much more than they actually box. Who knows?

 

You need to rewatch that fight Shavers was not robbed

 

I'm sure his quality of life would have been a lot better if he had quit after Manila.

I've always felt that his condition in later life was a combination of Parkinson's that would have happened anyway, badly exacerbated by the punishment he took throughout his career.

Unfortunately, Ali kept on fighting past the point where the arguments and evidence against him doing so were overwhelming.

His inability to stop Evangelista and Spinks (particularly in the rematch where he was in top condition and highly motivated), let alone put them on the canvas was all the warnings that he needed but he still returned and went straight in against Holmes after two years of inactivity.

Sadly, Ali was destined to keep returning until a humiliation or severe beating would finally make him see sense.

 

I couldn't care less about his legacy, if he'd had quit after Manilla there's a chance that he would have lived out the rest of his days healthier, it's heartbreaking the way things turned out for him.

 

His second reign as champion, with the exception of Manila, was pretty mediocre. His performances against Wepner, Lyle and Bugner before Manila were underwhelming.

The motivation wasn't there (I think his focus in the gym started to slip after the FOTC), he'd play rope a dope throughout dull fights and steal rounds with flashy bursts of energy.

But I don't think this does much to detract from his legacy because he was recognised and celebrated as an iconic global figure and, as a fighter, I think he is still chiefly remembered for the highlights of his career rather than his decline.

 

I think it was real close but Earnie deserved it. Maybe I should characterize it as a close fight that I think was judged in the wrong direction and not a robbery?

 

I tend to agree. As an example, Michael J Fox has parkinsons and is way, WAY better off than Ali was at his age.

 

Total agree. F*ck legacy. He would have beaten everyone of consequence, avenged his two losses and gone out after a fight where he displayed as much, if not more, heart and courage than any HW in history. He'd peaked in terms of guts and performance, there was nowhere to go but down.

But other factors - his pending divorce, and the ever present hangers-on whose livelihood depended on the easily-conned cash cow that was Muhammad Ali - insisted he keep returning for more beatings. Yeah, I know, the Parkinson's was almost certainly hereditary and he may have suffered regardless, but there's no way the years of pounding his head and body took from sparring and fighting didn't take a toll. Another three years, eight fights and 100 rounds helped nothing.

 

It was a clear Ali win even Shavers said that when he rewatched the fight the right man won

 

WELL HE ALREADY WAS A 3 TIME CHAMPION AS FAR AS WBA WAS CONCERNED (LISTON, TERRELL, FOREMAN).
He had to pay his entourage they all had their hand out.

 

Agree. Ali’s brother Rahman (formerly Rudolph Valentino - now there’s a name for you) later age onset of Parkinson’s disease could suggest a genetic predisposition with Ali’s condition brought on much sooner due to the enormous amount of punishment he shipped.

Agree also that the evidence was already safely locked in for Ali - perhaps even leaving Manila out and dropping tools as at his victory in Zaire. Nothing more to prove nor receive demerit points for.

I was glad for Ali beating Spinks in the rematch. However, you could see he was that much weaker as compared to his prime - and, imo, his balance was clearly not right.

No way could a Spinks push a prime Ali off let alone see Ali legs stutter a bit after the fact due to balance issues.

It’s a double edged sword. All the punishment Ali took up to and including Manila might’ve released on him in the same time frame that it actually did.

But there is also the fact that taking any measure of punishment when your older and that much more vulnerable invites greater danger - with a multiplying factor for damage.

To take Shavers’ shots at age 35 with all the wars already behind him was insane. And, Ali was quite beat up in the first Spinks fight also and, tbh, Leon had Ali virtually out on his feet in round 15 - another 30 seconds to the round might’ve even seen Ali down - thank god we didn’t have to witness that.

Even a relatively unscathed but older fighter facing and taking the punishment that Ali did at age 35 against Shavers and Spinks might be looking down the barrel of some very serious, later issues. Even in the rubber vs Norton, so many hits to factor in…it’s almost impossible to comprehend the punishment in total.