Jack Dempsey openly stated he would not fight black challengers

Exactly. Previously, the 1901 Griffin match was described as a TITLE DEFENCE also by a certain someone but now it's gone back to its rightful description: Nontitle 4 round exhibition. Who knows what tomorrow's spin might hold?

 

Absolutely. But he also lived in a time when there bumpers along the lanes in that black fighters just weren't provided the opportunities of white fighters. But he can't be blamed for that.

 

220 180 Hank Griffin 20 2 7


Hazard's Pavilion, Los Angeles
NC-ND
4/4
event bout score wiki
ref: John Brink
Griffin went down from a push in the first round and was knocked down twice by clean punches in the second. From then on he was in survival mode to claim the $100 forfeit. One report, prior to the start of the bout, described Griffin looking like a "famine sufferer". Attendance: 5, 000
Yes a 4 rds exhibition, butit has ben claimed here thatJim Corbett had over 60 pro fights before he lost to Fitzsimmons and that Jeffries fought,loads of pro fights on his European tour ,a claim that was blown completely out of the water by two of our esteemed posters Adam Pollack and Matt Donnellon . Anyone may repeat an inaccuracy in good faith but, when after continually being corrected by acknowledged authorities on the subject you continue to repeat them, you aren't acting in good faith, you are in fact deliberately not being truthful and that's as close as I dare go to saying the word that ends in YING.

In 1910, former undefeated heavyweight champion James J. Jeffries came out of retirement to challenge Johnson, saying "I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro".

 

You don't understand the concept of a paid fight and anytime a lineal champion is in the ring in a paid fight, his lineal title is on the line.

The have been fights of 5 rounds or less by lineal champions you know.

 

The following fights by reigning heavyweight champions were not recognized as title defences and no titles were on the line in them.
Bob Fitzsimmons v Lew Joslin 5th Jun 1897
Jim Jeffries v Tom Kennedy 24th Oct 1901
Jim Jeffries v Hank Griffin 17th Oct 1901
Jack Johnson v Victor Mclaglen 10th Mar1909
Jack Johnson v Tony Ross 30th Jun1909
Jack Johnson v Jack MurrayJan10th 1915
All the participants were paid for their efforts.

 

Could you please clarify what you mean by better than that? Do you mean better than the 12th best boxer of the decade 1900-1909 based entirely on fights contested in that time period? If so, perhaps I should have made it clear, my ranking of him there is based on all boxers, not just at HW, as per the sticky thread that Rummy is running. The only boxers who were, in the main, considered HWs, I have ahead of him based on work done in that decade, are Jack Johnson & Sam Langford.

 

Oh, I understand far better than you, across the board. I also understand that you are in acute denial.

 

Couple of questions:

1. If Lennox Lewis came out of retirement and fought Tyson Fury, who would you consider was the defending HW champion?
2. If your answer is Lewis would be defending his lineal title, would you agree that, by your interpretation, Wlad would then have his status as a lineal HW champ revoked?

 

Well Lewis has been retired 20 years. Yes if he and Fury fought it would still be for the lineal championship of the world.

 

Thanks, but that didn't answer either of my questions. I'd appreciate it you would answer them directly:

1) Who would you consider as defending the lineal title, Lewis or Fury?
2) If your answer is Lewis, do you agree that Wlad has never been lineal champ? Or at least can't be confirmed as a previous lineal champ for 100% certain until Lewis dies?

 

Fair enough.

 

1. Since Lewis is active now after 20 years of being retired ( age 57 ) and did not lose his lineal title. And fighting the man who has the current lineal title I would consider it a unique occasion and say neither is defending the lineal title and both are lineal champions fighting for it.

2. No, too much time has passed, in this case 20 years and Lewis is a 57 year old man! I would let the boxing historians debate the silly question. Besides Fury might not hold the title for long. When Tunney retires the original lineal title was dead and buried with him. It does not mean there are no lineal champions after him. Remember the lineal title is a concept and not a perfect un-broken chain.

 

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Lineal_Heavyweight_Champion

https://boxing.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_lineal_boxing_world_champions

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/achamp.htm



No. Champion Reign Began Reign Ended Defenses Opponents
1 John L. Sullivan 1885 Aug 29 1892 Sep 7 0 0
2 James J. Corbett 1892 Sep 7 1897 Mar 17 1 1
3 Bob Fitzsimmons 1897 Mar 17 1899 Jun 9 0 0
4 James J. Jeffries 1899 Jun 9 1905 May 13 R 7 6
5 Marvin Hart 1905 Jul 3 1906 Feb 23 0 0
6 Tommy Burns 1906 Feb 23 1908 Dec 26 11 9
7 Jack Johnson 1908 Dec 26 1915 Apr 5 8 8

Champion Nickname Reign
John L. Sullivan The Boston Strong Boy 1885-1892
James J. Corbett Gentleman Jim 1892-1897
Bob Fitzsimmons Ruby Robert 1897-1899
James J. Jeffries The Boilermaker 1899-1905, retired
Marvin Hart The Fightin' Kentuckian 1905-1906
Tommy Burns The Little Giant of Hanover 1906-1908
Jack Johnson Lil' Arthur 1908-1915

Heavyweight

• 
  
  
  • John L. Sullivan (1885-1892)
  • James J. Corbett (1892-1897)
  • Bob Fitzsimmons (1897-1899)
  • James J. Jeffries (1899-1905), retired
  • Marvin Hart (1905-1906)
  • Tommy Burns (1906-1908)
  • Jack Johnson (1908-1915)

 

That's because Fury is the lineal title holder.
If Lewis came back and fought chisora it would not be for the lineal crown. Duh!!

 

Once again don't mis quote me,. I said Jeffries was the lineal champion and lineal title defenses are not sanctioned as title defenses. They are on the line in ANY paid fight, which this one was. It is a conceptual title.

Speaking of lineal title matches Johnson offered Sam Langford a title shot which would have been a lineal title match, but he pulled out of a signed contact. Not an offer amount by the press but something both fighters agree on!

"To the committee of the National Sporting Club.
Gentlemen: I undertake and agree to carry out my contest with Sam Langford on the 22d of February, 1909, on the same terms and conditions as already arranged with Langford, viz. 1,000 pound purse and one-third of the interest in any bioscopic pictures that may be taken. At the same time allow me to tender my thanks to you for the courtesy you have extended to myself and manager, Mr. Sam Fitzpatrick, while we have been in this country. I am, gentlemen, yours faithfully.
Jack Johnson"

Johnson asked for and was granted an extension on that agreement by the NSC, and then a few months later;

"JOHNSON ACCEPTS OFFER

Agrees to Fight Sam Langford Before London Club on Derby Day

London, Feb. 5--Jack Johnson, the heavyweight champion, tonight notified the National Sporting Club that he has accepted their offer of a $6,000 purse for a match of twenty rounds with Sam Langford. The fight will take place during Derby week and the purse will be divided, $4,000 to the winner and $2,000 to the loser. Each man is to recieve $750 to cover travelling and training expenses." - Various sources printed between Feb 6th and Feb 8th, with this one taken from the Feb 8th, 1909, Salt Lake Herald

From that point on their were NUMEROUS newspaper sources from back then stating that Johnson and Langford were going to meet in London on May 24th, including more quotes from Johnson himself when he wrote a letter to a sportswriter by a W.H. Moseley as printed in sources dated Feb 22nd, 1909;

"As to your suggestion that I don't fight fight Langford in the event I whipped Burns, I will say that I am open to all comers and would not call myself the champion if I cannot defend the title. I gave my word to my English friends to fight Langford, win or lose with Burns, and I shall do so. I know Sam has whipped some good men in America lately and that I am going up against warm proposition, but you will remember I bested him in our fifteen-round fight, and while he has improved a great deal from his recent fights, I have learned a thing or two myself. I do think, however, that Sam is the best today in the game outside of myself; but when we fight get a big bunch on me, for 'I'll deliver the goods'.
Jack Johnson, Champion of the World, of Galveston, Texas, U.S.A."

Johnson signs the agreement to face Langford in London, publicly states that he has agreed to the fight in many sources, and then pulls out of the fight around Mar 18th, of 1909, gets himself called a "coward" and "yellow" by the press (some papers, such as the Times Dispatch, Apr 18th, report that Johnson was "hot under the collar" and whatnot over being called such things, but still stuck to his backing out of the fight, as well as getting called out by the manager (a Mr. Bettinson) of the NSC for failing to honour the agreement, and then publicly admits on Apr 19that "he broke his word" after stating that he "had promised to fight Langford at London (both quotes taken from Washington Times, Apr 19th, 1909)