Jack Dempsey openly stated he would not fight black challengers

By the literal interpretation that lineage can only change when the lineal champion is beaten, the HW lineal title died with Tunney.

I agree with you that the lineal title is a concept designed to cut through the politics of multiple governing bodies and determine who the true champion is, and is therefore is open to interpretation. Consistent criteria should be applied to that interpretation though.

You claim that your view is, that if the lineal champion retires and then returns 6-years later, he is defending his lineal title, whereas if a lineal champion retires and then returns 20-years later he isn't defending it. That isn't consistently applying criteria.

It is generally accepted that the true, 1 champion, changes either when they are defeated in the ring or retire.

This site reflects the generally accepted lineage of the HW title - https://boxing.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_lineal_boxing_world_champions#Heavyweight - You'll note that, even an only 2-year retired Louis, is deemed to be challenging the then lineal champion, Charles. The 6-year retired Jeffries was challenging the then lineal champion, Johnson.

So, as defined by this site & by the consensus held view of the HW lineage, Jim Jefferies never defended his title against a black contender. He did once challenge a black champion.

 

Well your wrong, many of the times did think Jeffries did defend his lineal championship vs Johnson as he never lost it before in the ring. Same thing with John L Sullivan before, right?

 

When you retire that's it, the championship passes,If you comeback you are a challenger ,and anything else is just errant nonsense!

Otherwise there would be no legitimate champion since Jeffries!

 

Possible definitions for the criteria required for the lineal title to pass from one fighter to another, include:

1) Defined requirements for passing of lineal title = When lineal champion loses only; Outcome = Jeffries was the defending lineal champion vs Johnson and the HW lineage died with Tunney;

2) Defined requirements for passing of lineal title = When lineal champion loses or retires; Outcome = Johnson was the defending lineal champion vs Jeffries and the current HW lineal champ is Fury

3) (obscure and frankly ridiculous option, offered only to placate you) Defined requirements for passing of lineal title = When lineal champion loses or dies as lineal champion; Outcome = Jeffries was the defending lineal champion vs Johnson and Lennox Lewis is the current lineal champion (i.e. Wlad was never lineal champion)

Option 2) is the defining requirement used here - https://boxing.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_lineal_boxing_world_champions - and is accepted as the consensus defining requirement.

Which of the above 3 defining requirements do you prescribe to? If none, could you please enlighten me as to a 4th option, that you follow, defining the requirement as succinctly as I have & apply that requirement consistently throughout HW title history, to arrive at who you see as the current lineal HW champion?

 

I agree with your first paragraph.

Technically, if the only way the lineage passes is the fighter losses in the ring (and that's the only reasonable criteria by which Jeffries can be considered the defending lineal champ vs Johnson), then the HW lineage died out with Tunney. I've even gone to the extent of offering Mendoza a quite ridiculous third option in my post above that would see Jeffries as the defending champion as he claims and finds a way for the lineage to continue post Tunney (i.e. lineage passes either when the lineal champ losses or dies), though even that won't be to his liking as applying that criteria consistently through history would Lennox Lewis is the current lineal champion and Wlad never has been.

 

I view #1 the most likely. When enough time has passes, and the lineal champion is retired and is older than the oldest man that ever held the title ( like in case of Lewis coming back at 57 ) that is the end of it. My take on he lineal title.

If you believe it he must beat then man who beat then man, then Tunney took the lineal title to his grave and Marvin Hart ( who beat Johnson ) when Jeffries 1st retired and Burns we not lineal champions and Johnson has a few lineal title defenses starting with a DQ win over Flynn, a dubious draw with Jim Battling Johnson, and a win over on points over Moran losing his lineal title vs Willard.

 

1) Is lineage can only pass when the lineal champ loses. In which case lineage died with Tunney.

You suggest there is an option 4) Lineage passes when either the lineal champ loses or, if retired, is older than the oldest lineal champ ever.

Your post started at saying you view 1), then offered 4) as an alternative option. Could you please clarify which definition your view is based on? 1 or 4?

 

Option 1 then. Are you view is?

 

I don't think you believe Tunney was the last lineal HW champ. Perhaps I'm putting words in your mouth by giving you pre-defined options to chose from. Let's be more fair to you.

A definition of my view of the conditions that must be met for a lineal champ to lose their lineage is - "they must lose their title in the ring or retire".

I challenge you, Mendoza, to provide your definition of the conditions that must be met for the lineal champion to lose lineage in 40 words or less. I used 10.

 

It belongs to the man who beat the last lineal title holder. If the lineal camp retires and does not come back after a # of years say five years or more the #1, #2 or #3 fighter meet for the new lineal title.

There far less than 40 words, and your definition is?

 

You first replied lineage would be lost 10 years after the champ retired and then changed to "# of years say 5 years".

Mendoza, are you literally making this up as you go along?

So, lineage is lost and becomes vacant 5 years after the champs last defense?

 

This might be the funniest thing Ive ever read on this forum. You do know who you are talking to right?

 

Yeah, I know. I've previously accused Mendoza of choosing his preferred outcome based on his agenda, and then making up conditions to support that outcome. I suspect you recognise that in him too. I'm having a little fun though, for now.

 

Just to point out that contrary to what has been stated by a poster.
When Johnson fought Hart on the 28th of March 1905,Jeffries was still the heavyweight champion.
Jeffries did not announce his retirement until the 2nd of May1905.
Hart became the recognized champion on 3rd July1905 , when he beat Jack Root for the title vacated by Jeffries.

Pray continue having your fun.

 

Yes, I think it's generally accepted that Jeffries retired and then Hart vs Root was for the vacant lineal HW title.

Either way, even if you retrospectively consider Hart vs Johnson as for the lineal title (I don't), the lineage still goes - Jeffries - Hart - Burns - Johnson.