In What Year Of Dempsey's Reign Did Wills Most Deserve His Shot?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Jan 17, 2023.


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  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Dempsey was champ from July 4th 1919 until Sep 23rd 1926
    In which year of Jack's title tenure did Harry Wills most deserve his title chance?
     
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
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  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    1919 itself.

    Wills successfully defended his own title in June against John Johnson, a fighter that Dempsey struggled pretty badly with in 1916; in the remainder of the year he beat Sam Langford, Jeff Clark, Sam Langford, Joe Jennette, Sam Langford, and a couple of also-rans, many of these fights in defence of his belt.

    Dempsey did 0.

    It's clear that Wills was very deserving of being Dempsey's first defence. It should be noted that Wills did not lose before Dempsey's next outing in late 1920, and he fought many times.

    Absolutely awful what happened to Wills, I think because it's a subject of debate so fierce on here we often forget about the man: he was a great fighter who was roundly cheated because he was not white. Hard on that man.
     
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
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  3. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think the Fulton fight in 1920 should have clinched the deal.

    That probably means substituting Wills for Brennan.

    Before that you could perhaps make a case for others getting the shot, but after that, it is a lot more clear cut.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2023
    janitor, Jan 17, 2023
    janitor, Jan 17, 2023
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  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    John Lester Johnson fought Wills on 10th Jun 1919 his previous fight ,which he lost was on 22nd Dec 1916.
    So I think we can scratch that win as far as anything note worthy is concerned.
    Jeff Clark had won 1 of his last 5 fights being beaten among others by Bert Kenney an old Johnson sparring partner.
    Jeannette was 40 years old and 2 fights off of retirement one of which he would win, one lose.

    Wills noteworthy wins that year were the two over Langford ,one of which was described as a stinker.
    Langford's own performances in1919 were hardly awe inspiring.
    Willie Meehan L
    Billy Hooper 7-2-0 W
    Bill Tate 16 -17-2 W dsq
    Harry Wills L
    Jack Thompson16-12-2 D
    Bill Tate 16-18-2 W
    Rough House Wilson Debut W
    Harry Wills L
    Jack Thompson17-12-3 D
    Harry Wills L
    Mexican Jim Johnson Debut W
    Jack Thompson Both men thrown out for stalling
    Dave McBride Debut W
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2023
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
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  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Do you think it was better that he won than lost? Or doesn't matter?

    I think it's important that Wills won this defence of his title. It's much harder to imagine any kind of unification fight if Wills loses this fight and the title.

    You scratch it if you like though.
     
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
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  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    You named guys like Johnson who hadnt fought for 3 and a half years,Clark who had won 6 of his last 24 fights and was losing to nobodies ,and Jeannette who was 40 years old and 2 fights away from retirement.
    There is no suggestion on my part that Wills did not merit a title shot.

    My contention is just that the pudding is being extremely over egged on his behalf!
     
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
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  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Johnson arguably got the better of Dempsey. Wills was matched with Johnson around the time that Dempsey was matched for the HW title, specifically that fighter.

    If you think this has absolutely no bearing on a contemporary case for Wills getting the shot at Dempsey, if you think that was about anything but stoking that particular fire, I can only tell you that I think you are wrong.
     
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
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  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Johnson arguably got the better of 21 years old Dempsey in1916,if you think because Wills beat Johnson 3 years later when Johnson was starting a slump of winning just 1 of his next 7 fights that result has any bearing,I can only tell you I think you are dead wrong.
     
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
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  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Fortunately, I didn't say any of that.
     
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
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  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Bottom line 1919 Wills has 2 noteworthy wins ,over Langford and this it the report on one of them.

    Wills defends his World 'colored' heavyweight title claim
    The Syracuse Herald reported that it was a very disappointing fight and that it wasn't important 'whether Wills won or Langford won or it was a draw.' It did report that Langford's eye was closed and his mouth cut at the end, while Wills only suffered a damaged reputation.
    Newspaper decision according to Boston Globe
     
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
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  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Even if this is correc,t Dempsey had one.

    This is a recurring theme throughout a comparison between their two careers. Wills almost always did the better work. Even in Dempsey's title-winning year, it is still clear that Wills is the pre-eminent heayvweight from a legacy perspective, in terms of who beat who, and I personally think boxrec riding doesn't underline the strength of his position properly.

    The answer is probably 1919.

    But Wills did better work throughout Dempsey's career.
     
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
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  12. Jason Thomas

    Jason Thomas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    On John Lester Johnson:

    Wills had already beaten him in 1915 and 1916.

    As for Joe Jeannette, he was 40 but he was winning fights pretty consistently, having lost over the last few years only to Langford and Norfolk. Jeannette was on a five bout winning streak, including two wins over Tom Cowler. He was old but not necessarily completely washed up. He was a notable name from the past, the type that test contenders.

    As for the original question, I would say 1920, but Wills was also clearly a better contender than those Dempsey defended against in 1921, 1922, 1924, and 1925. There might be some question about 1923, but even here Wills, though 35, was decisively better than Firpo the next year.
     
    Jason Thomas, Jan 17, 2023
    Jason Thomas, Jan 17, 2023
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  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    My sole point is during Dempsey's reign Wills wasnt playing Sonny Liston to
    Dempsey's Patterson.
    Jeannette was done, he would retire after his next fight then come back and lose a few years later.

    Cowler was nobody ,look at his from at the time, if you have to bring his name into the conversation that is telling,
    Three months after their fight old Jack Johnson carried him.
     
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
    mcvey, Jan 17, 2023
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  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    That's a shame that you'd make a thread with this title to make that point; but I disagree, I think he was doing great work, prior to and during Dempsey's reign. I think Wills was a greater fighter than Dempsey.
     
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
    McGrain, Jan 17, 2023
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  15. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Exactly. He was already considered likely the greatest threat when Dempsey won the title in 1919 but prior to his fight with Fulton Dempsey stated he would face the winner. When Wills knocked Fulton out with a bodyshot, breaking three of his ribs in the process, Dempsey signed to fight Miske the following day. Miske had only recently come out of retirement imposed by his doctors and had only had one fight in the previous year against a tomato can. He'd lost his last major fight by a one sided decision to Battling Levinsky the day before Dempsey won his title and prior to beating the tomato can mentioned above he had failed to win his previous four outings losing clearly to Levinsky, mentioned above, Kid Norfolk, and drawing with Bill Brennan and Tommy Gibbons. There is no question that not only did Miske not deserve a title shot but that Wills deserved it far more than Miske.
     
    klompton2, Jan 17, 2023
    klompton2, Jan 17, 2023
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