Hot take: many recent ATGs who became famous at welter aren't best evaluated with h2h matchups there

Floyd Mayweather, Jr., Manny Pacquiao, and Shane Mosley, Sr. in particular come to mind.

In my view, none of these was in their absolute peak form at 147lbs, even if that is where they had their biggest fights and drew the most dollars and expanded their name value the most. That just happens to be a marquee division, by which time all three had built up their names with a slow-burn accumulation having already collected belts at lighter weights.

Of the aforementioned trio, I think you can only really argue that SSM was a natural welter (or even light middle) as he is by far the largest-framed of the group, but his most effective weight is unquestionably lightweight. He was very good welter, but a straight up mythical beast at 135lbs.

Mayweather & Pacquiao, however, are much too small to be considered natural welters. That is where they cemented their legacies and laid their claims to eternal fame, and set PPV and gate records, and where they fought each other, sure. That doesn't make a true 147lber of either. Mayweather is 100% a natural super feather and it was there he scaled the apex of his physical abilities in the ring, and nobody will ever alter my thinking on that. As for Pac-Man, he's a bit trickier because he traipsed along through so many classes; he obviously didn't belong at flyweight, the limit at which he debuted while a starving, desiccated teenager - but he's not even close to being a proper welterweight, and is truthfully smaller than natural super feather Mayweather. Super bantam feels about right, for him.

So in addition to being done to death, historical fantasy h2h match-ups involving these guys against past welter greats are just not apples to apples. We should be putting Mayweather into fantasy match-ups with the best of all time at 130lbs; Pacquiao with the kings of 122, and Mosley with the lightweights. Those are the more interesting match-ups, as well as being far less well-trodden ground. Let's open it up a bit.

99% of hypothetical Mayweather threads don't have to be against the likes of Trinidad, Crawford, Spence, Margarito, Cuevas, Leonard, Napoles, Forrest, Whitaker, Curry, Basilio etc. At this point every iteration of Mayweather versus a well known historical welter has been done, ad nauseum. Where are the Mayweather vs. Argüello/Nelson/Lockridge/JCC/Uncle Roger (tantalizing and virtually never discussed!)/Chacón/Limón/Shibata threads?

The overwhelming majority of Pacquiao threads likewise don't have to just exclusively occupy the welter space. How about pitting him against Fenech, Zaragoza, Gómez, Vázquez (as in either Izzy or Wilfredo Sr.), Monshipour, Patterson or Jones for a change of scenery? Besides, again, it makes for more appropriate peak-for-peak (if not exactly aligned with a more fully matured prime for prime, factoring in experiential wisdom benefits) match-ups.

Mosley is closer to being a "real" welter than either of them, but he too gets relegated almost uniformly to welter match-ups as thought experiments. It's weird how many people have forgotten just what a mad wrecking ball he was at 135lbs. Granted his tenure was short, but looking at Mosley on film at lightweight, how can you not want to speculate on him being thrown in with the likes of ...hell, everyone from The Ghetto Wizard straight on through Lomachenko?

It's one thing for the dregs of the General forum to always come up with the painfully obvious same old same old "hEy WhAt AbOuT iF tHe NuMbEr OnE aNd NuMbEr TwO iN tHe DiViSiOn FoUgHt EaCh OtHeR? " (great job, pal, think up that one all by yourself? ) - but the denizens of Classic en masse I think expect, rightfully so, to be held to a bit of a higher standard.

...enter IB, doing just that. Where are the more interesting and off-the-beaten path threads imagining fights between recent greats who achieved their greatest fame at welter versus peers in the division where they actually were at their physical best? Why does it always have to be welters, just because they're closely associated with raising their profiles at that weight?

 

Alright, you're just tossing out a name without context, hard to know what your meaning is.

Are you suggesting we dissect a match-up between he and PBF at 130lbs? ...he and SSM at lightweight? Or are you adding him as somebody who unfairly gets locked up in Welterweight Matchup Penitentiary even though it wasn't the division in which he peaked?

Any of those is a valid and welcomed contribution, just not sure which you meant.

 

I sought to carefully delineate between 122/130/135 being where I viewed their respective peaks and 147 being where they fought the bulk of their primes, as those are not synonymous. The former to me connotes the culmination of physical ability, the attributes often lumped into athleticism such as reflex, power, speed combined which usually coincides with the most intensive periods of training most youngish bodies can withstand in the gym and the zenith of amateur styles being refined into pro. The latter incorporates maturity, experiential learning, increased ring IQ, and filling up one's bags of tricks with tweaks in technique accommodating the flesh no longer being capable of what it once had been. So to say, a "prime" Bernard Hopkins (from the waning days of his MW reign through his old man rampage at LHW) is a hell of a lot better than a "peak" Executioner from the 90's.

There is good reason to discuss Pac, FMJ, and Shane against the cream of the crop at welter. It just...has been done, a lot, and slotting them into the other mentioned weights is both underexamined and IMO equally (if not arguably in a sense more) appropriate.

 

Yes, I do like that. And likewise @Greg Price99's mention of Sweet Pea.

As for ODLH, he's a tough one to ponder. I do agree that like his rival Mosley, he looked incredible on film at lightweight (not as terrifying as Mosley, though). I just do also think his peak and prime dovetailed, at least somewhat, at 147. He's a big fella. Wasn't even really all that undersized in his ventures into MW.

(to be clear: he wasn't very good at the weight, but I don't think it was down to being undersized. His frame is massive for even welter; if we're to call him a natural anything it's probably a 154lber)