When Liston sparred Joe Bugner

Same with dlh vs Pac.

Liston quitting was different though

 

We know… you only mention it every other post. Get some new material.

 

Told ya I like the action .. and the medical reports on the injury have been posted a million times already .. so keep up
you like to dismiss it like you did to the other poster so you are getting it back .. so pep didnt have an injury Liston didnt have an injury ?.. dont get your panties all bunched up .. just asking what makes you so qualified to say Liston didn't have any injury? he was faking it ? thats all ?
seems a like a petty comment from an unathletic type .. who doesn't think injuries occur in sports

 

Totally agree with you Glass. Very good post.

 

That’s the thing - there was context obviously surrounding Liston’s surrender also - and that will still come down to interpretation from one person to another as to whether they feel that context justified the surrender.

I guess the crux point is -. does the instance of Liston’s surrender give you reasonable cause to believe that prime Liston would do same under duress?

IMO, I don’t think so and Liston was old, complacent, relatively inactive, undertrained and also had a pre-existing shoulder injury going into the fight which became worse over the course of the fight.

 

I never said he didn’t have an injury. I said I was skeptical.

I also said if he did have an injury, it wasn’t enough to quit as he was still throwing punches in the sixth round and thus able to continue.

How was this injury healed? It was reportedly a torn tendon, which means it would need surgery to repair. What is the date of Sonny’s shoulder surgery? He was supposed to fight Ali again like eight or nine months later.

Liston definitely had a scar on his shoulder for the second Ali fight — it can be clearly seen in pictures. Thing is, he has the same scar in the same place in the Patterson fights.

Which doctor performed the surgery that left no scar?

 

when a fighter is beat he’s beat. And his corner knows it. Sonny was beat anyway. At that point Sonny had no more rounds left in him because he hadn’t had that many rounds in too many years. A victim of his own success.

From now on I am using the word beat, rather than quit.

I made a New Year’s resolution to be kinder to certain fighters so I am looking at this from a new perspective.

 

Strewth cobber! Don’t let them come the raw prawn with ya! Shrimp on the barbie? My a**!

Crocodile Dummy has a lot to answer for.

 

Choc, we can go one better. Instead of quit we could insert <“thought better of it”>.

Eg: -

“When Sonny thought better of it in Miami, I believe he was carrying a legit shoulder injury.”

OR

“While many thought he could’ve continued in New Orleans, Duran thought better of it.”

Much nicer.

 

There's seems to be a lot of confusion in here. Liston didn't quit and actually complained when his team pulled him out. Certainly via this respected report after the fight.

The fight ended when Willie Reddish turned to the referee and made a washing gesture with his hands, which Dundee saw from Clay's corner. Waiting for the bell, Cassius had stood up and started his shadow-boxing routine, an exaggerated, disdainful jig he often lapses into when he knows he is ahead. When Dundee told him it was over, he danced into the middle of the ring with his hands high, yelling.

Liston sat limp and slumped down, tears trickling over his battered cheeks. It seemed incredible, looking at him, that this was the same frightening specter who had entered the ring 20 minutes earlier. It seemed wrong, somehow, to feel sorry for Sonny Liston.

In the wake of the fight came a spate of curiously defensive comment from the writers who had been so mistaken about the ability of Clay and the invincibility of Liston. As could be expected, there were cries of "Fix!" although it would be medically impossible to fix a fight by tearing a muscle in a fighter's arm. A team of eight doctors inspected Liston's arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed that it was too badly damaged for Liston to continue fighting. The torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the biceps, swelling and numbing the arm. From a tear like this, the blood seeps slowly through the tissues; thus Liston could fight awhile before the arm went dead. But his most effective weapon had been spiked,

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Nilon's argument for stopping the fight would appear to be stronger than Liston's for continuing.

"It's like you were a jockey on a fine horse," he explained, "the favorite for the Kentucky Derby. As the horse gets to the halfway pole, it begins to favor its left front leg. The horse is good and it's willing, and if you go to the whip it'll come on. But perhaps it will be permanently injured. There is still the Preakness and the Belmont, so you pull the horse up to race another day. That's what I did with Sonny. He couldn't feel his fingertips. He couldn't hold the arm up to defend himself, and he was slapping, not punching. One doctor thinks his arm is hurt worse than we imagine. It could require surgery. I'll know more about it after I take Liston to Philly in a few days to see an orthopedic specialist, the best in the country. This guy wrote a book on the subject.

https://vault.si.com/vault/1964/03/09/muhammad-ali-sonny-liston-first-fight-cassius-clay

 

I think you should've consulted Dr. Pat on his expert opinion before making such a post.

 

Well it sure changes the whole dynamic doesn't it. Frazier pulled out by his corner against Frazier, Ali pulled against Holmes, Liston against Ali and the list goes on.

 

Excellent find JT! Here's another one.

Hurt Before Fight

Liston's Age Called 38-41

"CHARLES (SONNY) LISTON v was on cortisone for five days immediately prior to his ill-fated title defense on Feb. 25, according to a report released Tuesday by the Senate Antitrust and Monopoly subcommittee. prepared by the State's attorney's office of Dade county, the report quoted Liston's adviser and personal physician as saying that Listen also was under going physiotherapy for pains in his left, arm for an 8 day Period before the fight. The Miami beach boxing Commission was not notified of the treatment, the report said.

After the fight, according to the report, Dr. Lester Russin and other doctors at Miami's St. Francis Hospital confirmed Liston's injury as an inflamed tendon in his left arm. Dr. Russin was quoted as saying the condition was "particularly prevalent In older athletes." The report said that Dr. Russin estimated Liston's actual age as between 38 and 41.

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/98505474/the-philadelphia-inquirer/

It's a tough decision to make. Should we believe the well-renowned doctors, physicians, State Attorney, and Miami boxing commision?... Or Pat?

I'm torn on this one.

 

Well it's certainly a strong day for Liston. Clarification on multiple happenings. No quit in Liston - he wanted to fight that sucker with one arm.