When Liston sparred Joe Bugner

We know he had a pre-existing injury before the bout, so it likely got gradually worse throughout the bout. You can see one of Liston's corner men rubbing Liston's shoulder here so there does appear to be an issue.

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"Eight doctors, including Dr. Lester Rassin, a prominent orthopedic specialist, issued a statement after the fight that Liston had suffered a torn muscle in his left shoulder and would not have been able to defend himself if he had continued after the sixth round." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/117334901/the-miami-news/

Even so, Liston wanted to continue

"I made the decision to stop the fight," Jack Nilon, advisor of Liston, announced to reporters in a post-fight news conference that was supposed to be held by Liston. "Liston insisted he could go on but his arm was numb and I just couldn't send him out to fight with one arm," said Nilon.

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/117335134/arizona-daily-star/

Unlike the quote you choose to believe which is from an unnamed source, 34 years after the fact, this quote is contemporary coming the day after the fight from a man we KNOW is Liston's manager.

 

Also if they were in on a conspiracy (which they would all have to be to come to the same conclusion regarding Liston's shoulder if it wasn't true) why would they withheld his purse in the first place and start an entire investigation? Why bring attention to it? Why not just move on?

 

How about the quote from Sonny himself at the press conference when he says the injury occurred in the fight, not before?

https://www.nytimes.com/1964/02/27/...rd-hurt-shoulder-exchampion-rates-machen.html

Who’s lying? Sonny or his cornerman?

Or both?

When was his surgery? Who performed it? Where was the scar when he fought again?

 

The same article I quote above has Sonny’s manager on the record saying they got paid on time and that the purse wasn’t held up. Kind of curious isn’t it?

Why was there an investigation by the attorney general at all if this was all cleared up by these eight doctors? What were their names, by the way? What tests did they perform? Do you have a link to the medical report? I can’t seem to find it.

 

Well the article is behind a paywall so I can't see it. All I see from a google search pertaining to that article is "Jack Nilon, Liston's adviser, had said that Sonny injured the arm during training. The injury had not been disclosed, although Liston took some days off "

I don't know why you're so adamant surgery was necessary. "A partial tear of the tendon may not require any treatment other than rest, while a completely torn major tendon may require immediate tendon surgery" We don't know if it was a complete tear. The doctor never mentioned it to my knowledge. They also stated Liston's damage wasn't permanent so it presumably did not require surgery.

 

Again I can't see any of it because of a pay wall.

You're obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer. "The Miami Beach Boxing Commission ordered Sonny Liston's purse withheld pending examination of the former heavyweight champion by two surgeons in Miami Beach today. The announcement, by Ed Lassman, a member of the commission and president of the World Boxing Association, was made about one-half hour after Liston gave up his world title to young Cassius Clay by failing to report for the seventh round last night." The eight doctors testified as to Liston's condition as a result of the investigation not vice versa. Try to keep up.

This is really embarrassing. Weren't you alive in this time period? How do you not know any of this? Why are you asking a 22 year old to educate you? Since you ask, the doctor's names that were released publically were Lester Russin, Stanley Winkle (the former two who performed the initial examination) Dr. Joseph Davis (Dade County Medical legal examiner) and Dr. Franklin J Evans (Medical legal adviser to the state's attorney office).

Here's a link to Robbins examining Liston's shoulder https://www.gettyimages.com.au/deta...-physician-of-the-boxing-news-photo/515097622

The medical reports to my knowledge were not released to the media but sent to the FBI who blacked out almost all information in the 28 page packet they released under the freedom of information act source:https://vault.fbi.gov/Charles (Sonny) Liston/Charles (Sonny) Liston Part 3 of 3

Would you like me to educate you further? Looks like you need it.

 

This was already explained to him on page 3 ... and now we are on page 7 .. LOL

 

I think the funniest and most pathetic part was him chastising JT for not believing a supposed conversation with a mystery man that was leaked 34 years after it supposedly happened, while he refuses to bell the renowned doctors, physicians, and attorney generals who all testified to Liston's injuries. What a sad sad man.

 

LOL, I was born in 1964 so I wasn’t keeping up with it quite yet.

That doesn’t sound like eight doctors actually examined him to make the diagnosis.

Tell you what, go back and read what I’ve posted. I’ve never said Liston wasn’t injured. I’ve said ‘if you believe’ and that I’m not sure. I don’t buy any whitewashed government/commission thing because there’s a can of worms there that it would do no good for them to open up — if they find the fight was fixed (which is the whole allegation around him quitting if you weren’t aware, to the point that the FBI investigated it too) it happened on their turf under their commission’s nose.

I’m not getting a paywall on the NYT articles. You get a certain amount of articles free a month so not sure if you’ve otherwise exceeded that or not. Sonny says the injury occurred in the first round when he threw a left hook and missed. He has said in multiple things I find with a simple google search that he wasn’t injured before the fight. So either he’s lying or his manager is, or both.

You are aware, I would assume, that there’s a reason people think the fight was fixed. There’s even FBI documents with people named about mobster types passing info on betting on the fight and someone saying ‘watch the fight tonight and you’ll see what I mean’ … and then Sonny quits on his stool.

There’s a reason why no city of any import would touch the rematch. If Sonny’s injury was so legit, why wouldn’t Miami host it? Or Madison Square Garden? Why did the entire boxing world look at this with suspicion?

I personally don’t know if he threw either fight but to ignore that and think there’s no reason for anyone to be suspicious … how many other heavyweight title fights have been investigated by the commission, the state attorney general and the FBI. (And if you’re going to tell me that the fact there was no prosecution means anything, it only means the U.S. attorney general and the FBI didn’t think there was enough evidence for a case or either just didn’t want to pursue it, not that they found nothing at all. Google Sonny Liston and Washington Times and you can read the FBI documents yourself.)

So yes, I’m skeptical about the shoulder injury. Maybe he had one beforehand, maybe he hurt it in the ring, maybe he was getting his ass kicked and decided to quit (in his postfight press conference, the NYT quotes him as saying he injured his shoulder in the first round, he couldn’t throw his jab — even though he threw it repeatedly in the sixth round before quitting on his stood — and that he knew he couldn’t win, likening it to fighting with one arm handcuffed to a tree .. which is in itself an interesting term as ‘having the handcuffs on’ in the day was code for a fighter not being allowed to really fight to win because he was throwing the fight, but that’s neither here nor there).

So Sonny himself said “I didn’t think I could take him because I couldn’t take those handcuffs off.” That’s a direct quote. Again, not “I quit because the pain was excruciating,” not “I quit because of the injury,” not “I wanted to keep going but my corner stopped it” — “I DIDN’T THINK I COULD TAKE HIM.” That is why he quit … because he was losing and didn’t think he could win.

What I have said repeatedly is that he could have continued to try to fight. Please just look at the sixth round and tell me his left arm doesn’t work — he barely threw his RIGHT but jabbed repeatedly and threw left hooks. So he certainly could have tried to keep going, but he chose not to because he was getting beat … injury or no injury.

Keep hanging your hat on the quote from an unnamed source in a book written after the fact, but it was investigated at the time. Why was that? Don’t act like this wasn’t considered suspicious literally immediately. (And I also linked a study of the sixth round that details everything Sonny did with his left hand that he supposedly couldn’t throw.)

There’s no point discussing this further. I’ve said all I really care to say because I just have to keep repeating myself. Have a good evening.

 

All you guys have been here a lot longer than me .. and I've seen this one already done to death .. I mean its right up there with the man on the moon was fabricated in a Hollywood studio ,LOL ..... Let's hope he can back off a bit .. then that would mean there would be only Rocky Jim left to convert ..hahahahah .. I'm 53 ,, so no way that happens in my lifetime ... LOL

 

Watch the sixth round and tell me Sonny couldn’t throw his left.

Duran went to a hospital after he quit over ‘stomach cramps’ so I guess you buy that too.

 

If Bert Sugar didn't write it there's no chance RockyJim is a gonna believe it!

 

The article i sourced stated categorically that his team refused to let him fight on and that he wanted to.

You want everyone to swallow everything you thrust forward as gospel while totally disregarding the Sports Illustrated article.

This is why no-one is interested in answered your question demand.

You go your way and we'll go ours.

 

So no matter what Sonny himself said, his corner is telling the truth and he’s lying right?

Got it.

Later.

 

You just keep on hating and maneuvering Pat it's good for the soul.

Get that.

Later.