Would 88 Tyson have beaten Tokyo Douglas?

Talking of Bruno, here’s a question for you Pug…
Assuming that we accept 1990 Tyson was off his game by a bit of a margin, do you think that 1988 Bruno could have done to Mike what Buster did to him in Japan…thus leading to Tokyo Bruno?
After all, Frank was another big HW who possessed a great jab, was aggressive, loved to throw his weight around, and hit harder than Buster.

Tokyo Bruno…hmm, I like the sound of that.

 

Nearly got me Vic - but I believe it was Jimmy in Airplane 2.

 

Yoko Bruno? Good question Vic. Well if we take Mike as being less than he was when he fought Frank in 89, makes sense to imagine Bruno doing better against 90 Mike.

Just imo, Frank still wasn’t the rounded fighter that Douglas was in Tokyo, Frank’s roughhousing would only take him so far - but he did have the bigger punch so there’s that possibility of putting Mike out early - otherwise I don’t see Frank holding his advantage and building on it over the longer haul as Douglas did.

 

Well done Pug…you spotted my deliberate mistake haha.

 

I agree Bruno kept holding. Relentlessly so in the 1st round when, if memory serves me correctly he had a point deducted.

I agree its more difficult to look fluid in throwing combinations when your opponent keeps grabbing you after you get your first shot off.

Even so, Tyson did seem less nuanced in his approach to set up his attacks. He seemed to approach Bruno face on without head movement and then load up on a single shot. That's relative to previous fights where he would be moving his head at the same time as moving his feet, to change the angle of his attack, and not merely to close the distance face on.

My guess, and it is just a guess based on what I've read and what I observe when I watch his fights, is that by Bruno 1 he was less disciplined and focused on honing his craft in training and was under the impression that his explosive power was all he needed. Moreso by the Douglas fight.

I doubt Tyson was still relentlessly practising those patterns Cus taught him, whereby it became 2nd nature to react to an opponents jab with a pattern of slipping it, moving his feet to change the angle of attack and throwing in set combination, all in one harmonious, fluid set of movements.

 

I’m gonna keep my eye on you fella!

 

Sure, I understand and respect where you’re coming from Greg, but the other point was that Bruno fighting rough, (not just holding but holding and hitting also), can be reasoned to not only have stifled Mike but also unsettle Mike and put him off his own game during the real time action..

 

True, a guy like Frank with his stamina issues which on a few occasions led to poor punch resistance the longer a fight went on when facing top opposition…would most probably have needed to get Tyson out of there by halfway at the latest.

 

I completely agree, it was likely a combination of Mike's reduced focus on training allied with Frank's holding tactics, that, by my eye, makes me pick that fight as potentially the beginning of him slipping.

I also agree with your wider point, that the Douglas loss wasn't just due to Tyson's deterioration, but also to how well Douglas performed. For a 42-1 (?) upset to occur, a whole number of factors had to be aligned, in this instance including, but no limited to - 1) The death of Douglas's Mother causing an uncharacteristic focus in him; 2) The style match up favouring a focused, well trained Douglas; 3) Tyson's distractions taking his focus away from boxing training in general in the year leading up to the fight; 4) Poor preparation in the immediate lead up to the fight, including, if reports are to believed, the very night before it. If any of these had not been the case, he probably would not have lost.

 

88 Tyson was peak. Kos 1990 ill trained and ill focused Tyson

 

Hey Greg, we don’t completely agree on everything but that’s all fine of course.

For me, in a nut shell, Mike was basically fine vs Bruno in 89. What ever differences seen in Mike’s performance and effectiveness - they were essentially down to what Bruno did, not what Mike didn’t do nor related to Mike being sub par within himself.

Even prior to that fight, Mike didn’t move his head every second - and in the fight itself, I saw more or less the same head movement and Bruno’s hold/hit and hit on the break tactics otherwise stifled the effectiveness of that head movement. Mike also got hurt, frustrated and p*ssed - which can naturally impair a fighters real time game.

Not you of course, but it’s interesting that Mike is often over focused on by others, while ignoring the causes and effects of the opponent. And the lacking of quality in certain opponents of Tyson’s is also ignored when giving Mike absolute credit for his more emphatic victories.

The over focus on Mike’s performance/context likely lends to the rarely mentioned fact that Bruno himself was coming back from 16 months inactivity.

Of course we know that next fight up Mike swatted Carl Williams in classic Tyson fashion.

I think the exaggerated perception of Mike being invincible plays a big part.

So, the thinking is, if Mike wasn’t or didn’t necessarily look invincible - then there had to be something up with Mike - nothing to do with the quality of the opposition. Cart before the horse type thing.

 

Rewatch that fight bro that fighter in the ring wasn't even close to Tyson. Still knocked Douglas down

 

This pretty much

 

Watch Tyson's first fight without Rooney against Frank Bruno in 1989. He looked horrendous. And against Carl Williams, who was a sucker for left hooks, Tyson didn't look any better and lands one punch. Yep, a left hook. One punch.

Of course the 1 round KO over Truth camouflaged his slippage. He was on a crash course with disaster and he couldn't sustain solely on talent and cutting corners. It all came crashing down against a determined opponent fighting his best fight in Tokyo.

So no, Tyson didn't look good leading up to the Douglas fight. Newspaper articles presented by Swag prove so. People who were alive knew so. It was simply a matter of time before something like this would happen.