Am I the only one who just can't watch George in his prime?

You're an idiot. His retina wasn't at 100% and I'm sure he felt that everytime he was hit. He was quite obviously not at 100% because of it, not to mention back to back knocks out, and getting up there in age.

Anyways, this is all a deviation from the main point which is that Shavers was not ranked so hanging him up as this huge victory for Cobb, to suggest by extension, Norton's rating for beating Cobb (after being winless for nearly two years and just coming out of retirement after one mind you) is a joke.

Had Foreman beaten Cobb and gotten a subsequent ranking, you'd be calling WBC, WBA, The Ring, IBF, 24/7 to complain. You're a clown.

 

7.00 Foreman slips under a Norton hook.
7.04 Foreman parries a jab and then slips under a hook - again.
7.10 Foreman parries down a jab to the body.
7.14 Foreman uses upper body movement to evade a jab.
7.19 Foreman parries a jab firmly enough for it to be heard clearly.
7.39 Foreman smothers any chance of a Norton attack in close.
7.50 Foreman throws a jab then leans back turning taking some sting out of a left hook. Three seconds later he ducks under a left hook yet again.
8.15 Foreman rubber necks a left hook showing excellent anticipation and reflexes yet again.
8.20 Foreman, on the attack, slips a jab.
9.20 Foreman effortlessly parries away a Norton jab.
10.36 Foreman parries away another jab.
10.52 Foreman smothers an up jab almost before it had begun.
10.55 Foreman ducks under yet another left hook.
11.29 Foreman knocks down another Norton jab.

This content is protected

To say peak George Foreman's only defense was blocking punches with his face doesn't really cut it. These are the things he is regularly up against however. This was peak Ken Norton and he could barely land any left hooks at all, his favorite punch. His jab, a good one, also only enjoyed fleeting success as Foreman parried a great many of them. For an aggressive puncher his defense was quite serviceable.

 

Fun fact: the retina does not have pain receptors. Continue.

 

Ah, I love posts like these. Thank you. You certainly showed that Foreman wasn't entirely defenseless. That having said, this fight shows that Foreman's defense was painfully primitive, with no ebb and flow, nor any consistency. That's my main issue with young Foreman -- he certainly had the physical tools to be a complete fighter and showed promising things (like decent footwork in the Chuvalo fight) but never remained consistent. He always went back to his crude, push-and-catch style. It worked for the most part, but made for some very ugly showings (Ali, Lyle and Young in particular).

Anyway, great post and thanks for taking the time to timestamp.

 

Not all eras are created equal, and none of those guys had an ATG opponent as limited as Frazier to contend with. Comeback Foreman I actually really enjoy watching, despite his age-related limitations. He was a much more skilled fighter than his earlier incarnation and actually learned the art of pacing.

 

All those fighters I mentioned, besides Buddy Baer, had multiple opportunities to face limited champions and many fought in weaker eras than Foreman. Frazier wasn't a man anyone could have beaten.

The fact is Foreman was more skilled than you're giving him credit for and would have way more losses if he had zero defense and no skill.

 

This to me is obvious from the films. From a pure skill perspective, prime Foreman wasn't anywhere near as relatively bereft as Deontay Wilder (though I'll take this chance to state that I feel even Deontay had Foreman-level heart, an Elite championship factor imo).

 

That's not how it works. You're correct (for once) the retina doesn't have pain receptors. Your brain is still sent messages that something is wrong.

Also, he just had surgery as you stated, which would at the very least make the nerves and vessels penetrated not be at 100% unless they could magically find a way to get to his retina without penetrating anything in between.

 

I've had surgery and the nerves are very sensitive when it's over. It can take months to feel back to normal. Shavers was pretty old regardless and had been in some very brutal fights shaving away at his lifespan prior to the Cobb fight.

 

I agree. Especially when the anasthasia of the surgery wears off. It's not as simple as "The retina doesn't have pain receptors lolz". Then again judging by a lot of noneck's scorecards, and analysis, I very much doubt he has eyes to begin with.

 

I have no idea what kind of sorcery you’re talking about with “nerves and vessels.” The answer here is either that his eye would‘ve caused the Cobb fight to have been stopped, assuming competent doctor and ref, or it wouldn’t have. The answer is the latter and it has nothing to do with outcome of the Cobb fight.

 

Hey no worries at all. As i said i'm not pretending he's a heavyweight Benitez or anything but i see people all the time claiming he had no defense whatsoever which is a long way from the truth. Also when you have an offence like that you've got a lot of leeway.

Edit - At least you've made some sort of adjustment to your opinion after seeing the evidence spelt out. Not many do.

 

Seems like you need to be educated on Frazier too. Just because Frazier relied heavily on the left hook doesn't mean he was limited, anymore than Foreman not being a defensive master means that he lacked "any rudimentary skill" as you claimed earlier.

I don't have the patience of JT, so I'll just recommend Frazier's fight with Chuvalo and the rematch with Quarry to get some knowledge of what he could do. Or the Ellis fight or all three with Ali, of course. But Chuvalo and Quarry 2, I think are fights where he displayed his tool box really well.

Frazier had as we know tremendous will and stamina, but was also a clever fighter and had a very good defence.

 

No, and going on what evidence we have, the 70's was the best. Since no other HW era has had fighters being competitive on a world class level in their 40's two or more decades since they first turned pro.

Foreman was, according to most, robbed in his last fight and title defence almost 30 years after first turning pro. Holmes gave McCall a close fight at 45, 20 years after being Ali's sparring partner. That's how shitty the 70's were.

 

I'm actually a huge fan of Frazier's and have seen most of his fights. He was limited in that he only had one method of fighting (inside), one method of attack (left hook) and had a very basic bob-and-weave defense that saw him get hit A LOT. That spells disaster against a big, strong puncher like Foreman who used his sheer strength to push Joe into punching range and landed uppercuts at will. As much as I love Smokin' Joe, he wasn't nearly as multi-faceted a fighter as the lineal champs of those other guys' eras like Holmes, Tyson and Wlad.