How would history view Norton and Frazier if they never beat Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by NewChallenger, Jan 24, 2023.



  1. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Lyle was never better than Quarry. He beat ONE rated opponent and had to get off the canvas to do so. Jerry Quarry was number 1 contender multiple times in his career. How many times was Lyle? Oh yeah, that's right none.

    Who did Lyle beat you don't think Quarry wouldn't have beaten? (please don't bring up a shot Ellis)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  2. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    He knows nothing about the 70's he just wants to blindly criticise.
     
  3. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    You should study up a bit and learn some context instead of making a fool of yourself with your tireless 70's agenda again and again and again.

    Quarry had whooped Shavers just 6 months prior, you know, the guy you are criticising Frazier for not facing. This put Quarry well up toward the pointy end of the rankings. What oh so obviously escapes you as you bang on about who he should have fought to improve his legacy with Cojimar is that he was not the champ anymore and was actually chasing a title shot!

    So what do you think would have improved his legacy more, fighting guys that had just been whooped and pushed down the ranking or fighting the top contenders in order to fast track the chance to regain the title and really boost his legacy? Blind Freddy knows the answer to this one. As it is The Thrilla in Manilla loss hardly damaged his legacy.

    On top of this Frazier got a WHOPPING 400k for fighting Quarry again.

    Where is Perry when we need him? Probably breaking treadmills.
     
  4. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    :lol: Soon as I saw study up I started thinking of the treadmill warrior.
     
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  5. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Isn't this the same clown that hyped AJ as the best thing since sliced bread then slowly tried to exit the bandwagon as soon as he lost to Ruiz? Or am I thinking of someone else?
     
  6. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic For the honorable cross and the golden freedom Full Member

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    To answer this (How would history view Norton and Frazier if they never beat Ali?) I must first understand what the question is:
    1a.) Frazier and Norton never fought Ali
    2b.) Frazier and Norton fought Ali but never won (if only this is changed, it means both fought Ali 3 times; and lost all 3 times)
     
  7. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    The ultimate one of a kind.
     
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  8. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    It was logical to see him as the greatest heavyweight ever because he was the latest and most advanced.
     
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  9. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I guarantee you if I turned pro today (with the sole tutelage of world renowned grey of course) this guy would be calling me the greatest of all time.

    I'll let him get away with that one. :lol:
     
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  10. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Over and over again we see guys losing to guys they shouldn't lose to on paper.

    Holyfield lost to a guy who likely wouldn't last a round with Mike Tyson. Lewis beat guys better than Rahman and McCall like Holyfield and Klitschko. We don't get to pretend these losses didn't happen because they don't make sense on paper and they illustrate how fighting more guys can dramatically impact ones legacy.

    I would give Norton a good chance of beating Byrd but far less of beating Tua despite Tua losing to Byrd
     
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  11. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    You'd be favored over Liston and Ali that's for sure. Well as long as you are tall, heavy and have big muscles.
     
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  12. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    Yeah, like the guy you proclaimed as logically the best heavyweight ever losing to a guy sitting on about 34% body fat......and then an ex cruiserweight which would have absolutely fried your super heavyweights rule brain.

    Gotcha.
     
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  13. Cojimar 1946

    Cojimar 1946 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Lewis is widely regarded as the best h2h heavyweight these days and has some pretty humiliating losses so not sure I see the argument here? Is Lewis garbage for losing to 15-1 underdog Rahman? Losing to Ruiz is a bad loss but frankly I don't see it as any worse than the Rahman debacle and nobody writes off Lewis in h2h fights. Maybe you disagree?

    Arguing someone isn't obligated to face another fighter though doesn't seem like good logic because you could use it to defend not fighting virtually anyone given how matchmaking sucks at heavyweight and given how fighters frequently lose to guys they are expected to beat.

    If Hearns and Barkley had never fought I doubt anyone would be criticizing Hearns and if someone suggested Barkley might beat Hearns they would be ridiculed or ignored.
     
  14. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    So basically your argument is, champions or top contenders, should be criticized for not going out of their way to fight fringe contenders because their's an off chance they MIGHT lose?

    Also t's pretty interesting you suggest Lyle improved to be better than Quarry after that bout because that's not the tune you were singing some back.

    Also he didn't lose every round against Quarry. He won four rounds on one score card, one on another, and two on the last. As a matter of fact, I think he took an early lead. Do you actually watch these fights or do you just run your mouth?
     
  15. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    I wouldn't say Lewis is widely regarded as the best H2H heavyweight - an ali pick is far more popular.

    So what you are implying is you think Joshua might come back and redeem himself enough to be "widely regarded" as the best h2h heavyweight.

    Not happening in a million years.

    Nah. Also when talking guys like Frazier and Norton etc they do not frequently lose to guys they are expected to beat - not by a longshot.

    Exceptions to the rule, big exceptions. Frazier beat a boatload of people and never in his lifetime lost to a non ATG and he fought plenty of contenders. Let that sink in.