The Best Of Larry Holmes Versus The Best Of Joe Frazier For $1,000,000,000.00

Thanks for this. So in reality, bar Ali, Frazier never fought or beat anyone on Holmes level. I mean going distance twice with the tough but limited Bonavena does not suggest he will mow down Larry. Also didn't Ali handle Joe pretty easily in their second fight which could be a template for a Larry win? To be clear I don't want to dump on Joe's legacy, just interested to debate as many on hear seem to feel it would be a pretty easy Frazier victory.

 

Btw do you have more info as far as what physical advantages Larry may have over Joe and if they maybe a factor? I am assuming Holmes was heavier, taller with a longer reach? Of course this doesn't necessarily mean an automatic advantage but worth considering.

 

He beat a FOTC Ali who was better than a prime Holmes imo. It may only be one win, but Holmes doesn't even have that one win against a fighter of Frazier's caliber.

Ali took 15 rounds to beat Bonavena. No way he mows down Foreman.

Joe was past it in that fight. He was never quite the same after TFOTC, and the beating he took against Foreman couldn't have helped.

 

You're welcome mate.

No, aside from Ali, Frazier did not beat anyone as good as Holmes. I'm not even convinced an Ali who was only 4-months removed from a 3.5-year exile was as good as prime Holmes. Holmes never beat anyone as good as prime Frazier, either, though.

I'd favour prime Holmes over a 1974 Frazier in a 12-round fight too. Prime Holmes vs a prime Frazier in a 15-round fight, I really don't know. I think Holmes would do better against the field, but Frazier was a nightmare stylistically vs boxers. I wouldn't pick either, prime vs prime, with confidence.

 

I don't have any information pertaining to physical advantages, beyond what's in the public domain, i.e. Height - 6ft 3ins vs 5ft 11ins; Reach - 81ins vs 73.5ins, Weight - I think of Holmes being c.210lbs at his best & Frazier c.205lbs, so only a negligble difference for these big men.

In terms of insights, clearly Holmes would have an advantage at range & Frazier in close. The 2 x questions that would likely determine the fight are - 1) Could Holmes either dissuade Frazier from closing the distance regularly enough, or if not could he do enough damage landing punches on Frazier's way in to wear him down/close his eyes to force a stoppage?; and/or 2) Could Holmes footwork maintain the distance on a Frazier who is moving forwards, attempting to close the distance?

As is often the case in fights between elite fighters, the boxer with the better footwork, who dictated what range the contest would be fought at most often, would likely win the fight.

The majority in this thread favour Frazier & I understand that logic. Considering my point 2) above, I have a vague recollection of Frazier being interviewed before Ali 1 and the interviewer referenced Ali's speed. Frazier responded something along the lines of "he may be fast, but he can't move backwards faster than I can move forwards". I thought that was a great insight into Frazier's mentaility as well as a succinct way of explaining why Ali had so much trouble with Joe.

The "all other things being equal, a Swamer beats a Boxer" logic, that prevails throughout this thread, is sound. That said, personally I see it more 50/50. Whilst prime for prime Ali was clearly lighter on his feet than Holmes, I don't think a post-exile Ali was. I see Holmes jab as being marginally heavier than Ali's and whilst he obviously wouldn't get the better of Frazier on the inside, I think he'd do more damage at that range than Ali did. That allied with the damage he does at range, when the pace inevitably starts slow & also inevitably slows at some point during the 15-rounds, feasibly may be enough to win a tight decision or even stop Frazier late with facial damage/closed eyes.

I have no confidence in who would win this fight. The only outcomes I'm confident that are likely, are that it would go late, if not the distance, would be a great fight and both fighters would absorb terrible, possibly even career shortening, beatings.

 

Ali didn't beat Frazier easily in their 2nd fight, Frazier came on in the later rounds and made it a reasonably close fight. Ali also repeatedly held on to Frazier and should of been penalised by the referee for it.

 

Thanks for insightful post as always!

 

Thanks I need to rewatch it!

 

Sorry I meant if Bonavena (brave but limited compared to Larry) took Joe 15 rounds I don't see Frazier mowing down Holmes, as some on this thread have suggested.

 

Styles make fights Bonavena is a tough rugged brawler, Holmes is a technical boxer. Holmes was almost stopped by Weaver, Witherspoon, so I wouldn't say it's out of the question that Frazier could stop Holmes late on.

 

Holmes all the way

There's no way a one handed fighter with just a left hook can whip a multi dimensional fighter like Larry

Ali would have won that FOTC if he hadnt played on the ropes so much, rds, 6, 7, 8

What was needed besides skill, was power and like George Foreman, Larry had it in the form of a right cross

Seriously, look what Joe Bugner did to his face. Now imagine what Holmes would do

Joe wouldn't be nearly as successful with a body attack because Larry would simply limit it by tying him up, somewhat like Ali Frazier two but without the excessive holding

and just as Ali had Joe wobbly in the first, Larry would follow up and if he doesn't stop him quickly, Larry will disfigure Joe's face before eventually putting him on the canvas.

Joe will get up, but Larry will just tee off on him until the ref steps in to stop it

 

Yes. they clearly hadnt given what each man brings into this matchup much thought

 

I understood what you meant. History has proven this logic doesn't work at all. Bonavena took Ali 15 rounds, yet Ali mowed down Foreman in 8.

 

I'd take Holmes, I don't remember him having problems with shorter, pressure fighters. The two guys he fought who were closest to Frazier in size, Shavers and Ocasio won one round between them out of 30. Holmes was not known for having problems with left hooks either. IMO, Holmes jab and lateral movement (using the jab and left foot would take Holmes to his own left, away from the JF hook) would keep Frazier off of him while he cut and swelled Frazier's face. Fighters didn't walk through the Holmes jab and the right hand was dangerous too.

Holmes got caught by right hands from Shavers and Snipes but that was after he was well ahead in both fights and cruising. He had beaten Shavers 18 rounds in a row over two fights and got caught in the 19th round by a big punch, Holmes got up and dominated the fight, winning the rest of the rounds, and stopped Shavers.

Frazier being a smaller, pressure fighter known for left hooks is not the type of fighter who gave Holmes problems. When Holmes had a close fight when he was champ, it was with a tall fighter with a good jab.

 

Gotta admit, when I first glanced at the thread title, semi reading it, I thought it was maybe suggesting “1 prime Larry Holmes vs 1 billion prime Joe Fraziers”.

I thought, hmmm, that’s selling Joe a bit short, since there’s a respectable chance that it might only take only 1 Joe Frazier to turn the trick. Lol.