Sonny Liston vs. Larry Holmes

Larry could get rocked, harder than by anyone but Shavers. But I see him winning a clear UD.

Liston would definitely irritate the hell out of Holmes with his jab (Larry liked to be the big Jab guy), but ultimately Holmes was just too ring smart and fleet. Though not the level of 60s Ali in that department, Holmes moved way too good for Sonny. There would be a couple of staggerings though, and not just due to Liston. Larry would start homing in that right in the later rounds.

Actually, 12 rounds Larry by UD, 15 rounds Liston quite possibly gets stopped real late.

 

Probably the two best left jabs in heavyweight history. Sonny had a bit more arm length while Holmes a tad more height. Liston had more power behind the jab and Holmes might have had just a wee bit more precision. Both were durable with Holmes being perhaps a bit more so. Larry had fast and better footwork. Liston’s right hand was a missile though, and Holmes had a soft spot for rights.
Not an easy one to choose a definite winner. I’m leaning towards Holmes but the opposite could certainly happen.

 

How I see it. Holmes likely wins a decision but Sonny would be a threat from opening to closing bells.

 

Said this before. Contrary to popular belief, Holmes didn't effortless outbox his opponent's ala pre-exile Ali like many seem to think he did. He often had to get his hands dirty and wear his opponents out. He also struggled greatly against less than stellar opposition.

Mike Weaver was 19-8 when going against Holmes yet he gave him all he could handle, and at one point came damn close to pulling off an upset. Snipes never amounted to much in the grand scheme of things, and in his very next fight drew with an obscure name, yet he had Holmes down in a BAD way so it's not like it took an ATG to trouble Holmes

Holmes also never really excelled in one area of the game. He was good in practically all of them but never excellent at any in particular with the exception of the jab and even so, it's not all it's cracked out to be. Every time, I see Holmes pitted in a matchup on here, against a caliber of opponents he never fought, he's virtually favored to shut them out, when he rarely did so in real life against the rather mediocre opposition he did face.

Weaver, Snipes, Shavers (sure Shavers may have only really had that one moment but it was a BIG moment, Holmes shouldn't have been hit by him in the first place), all got around his jab at times, with varying degrees of success.

If he fights Liston, he's going to have to outlast him imho.

1. He's NOT going to be able to stay on his toes all night. He never did so in any of his actual fights. His stamina simply wasn't on that level (to be honest, I'm not even sure if he has the endurance advantage in this match-up). When he does, he's going to get in the trenches with Liston and he's not winning that battle.

2. Larry had a very dangerous tendency to drop his right hand, leaving him open to Liston's best punches, the jab and the left hook. Liston was an excellent adapter (just watch his bouts with Williams and Machen for proof of this). He will notice Holmes dropping his right, and make Holmes pay dearly for it.

3. Holmes WILL get hurt at some point of the bout. To his credit, he stayed calm under fire when Shavers, Snipes, etc had him in duress. But make no mistake, these guys weren't half the finishers Liston was. Liston didn't swing and swing with everything he had when he had his opponent hurt. He remained composed, looked for openings, decided what the best course of action to take was depending on the situation, and executed.

Add all these up, and it spells disaster for Holmes.

 

That's certainly an excellent argument for Liston's side of things. One thing that you could add is that Holmes himself didn't overly love fighting guys with a top jab themselves. The Liston jab would be better than any Holmes faced you'd think. Have a look at some of the posts in the Louis - Holmes thread the other day pertaining to this. There were a few good points put forward. Liston need not even win the battle of the jabs he only need be competitive in it to expand other offensive avenues.

 

Both would find themselves facing a fighter better than any they’d beaten. Holmes never beat a fighter as good as Liston. The reverse is also true. I like the point about the jab, you don’t have to out jab Holmes, just make him uncomfortable. Holmes jab was like a whip, Liston’s like a piston. Both great and very different.
Weaver was much better than his record. He was 8-8 at one point if I recall.
I have no issues with Holmes endurance, at least not as far as it being less than Sonny’s.
More important than being floored is getting up. Holmes was pretty good at that.
I would favour Holmes, I have no problem with a Liston pick, but there is nothing that makes me see him as the certain winner or even the likely one.

 

Peak, focused, sober, well-trained Liston takes out Holmes no later than round 10 IMO.

Liston of the first Ali fight, I think there are still the issues Swagdelfadeel cited, but it’s a more competitive fight that Larry can win, but Liston could still drop the hammer at any time harder than Holmes could ever drop it.

Just my .02, maybe worth that much.

 

I normally go for Holmes in most fantasy fight, Swag.
But your post is that good I see a great case for Sonny.

 

Appreciate it Ferg. I enjoy your posts and threads as well.

 

Excellent points, I agree.

Maybe but he wasn't exactly an ATG. He'd lost to the obscure Leroy Jones less than a year prior.

Granted Sonny never went 15, but comparing their respective states at the 12 round mark, it's Liston who seems to have more in the tank. Holmes, while not gasping for breath had visibly slowed down from the beginning of the bout, as opposed to say Liston's bout with Machen where he never seemed to tire, and on the contrary actually ended up more active in the last round than in the first.

I disagree that getting up is more important than being floored in Holmes' cases. He should've never been floored by Snipes of all people in the first place.

I'll give him a pass for being floored by Shavers because he's probably the hardest puncher the division's ever seen, but let's not kid ourselves. He shouldn't have been in a position to get nailed like that in the first place.

I agree he had excellent recuperative abilities, probably some of the best I've seen along with Ali, Louis, and Foreman. Not denying that at all. My problem is he had to show these abilities far too often against not exactly ATG competition.

 

For me Holmes is one of the most vulnerable ATG champions, as you said he deserves credit for getting out of those sticky situations. But the problem is those situations wern't against ATGs, they were against a green Weaver, green Witherspoon, Renaldo Snipes. The big question is if Holmes was in big trouble against another ATG could he survive ?

 

It's been done a million times .. And every time you try and slice it .. It still always comes out the same the same .. a coin flip .. a 50-50 fight

 

what does that mean?? .. Lewis got sparked twice ? RIGHT ?? by ATGS??? NO ... did Holmes ?? Holmes is one of the most complete HW ATGS ... why not? the best Jab , great chin, movement ... not the resume as an Ali but what is your gripe ? you are circling back to a Holmes' ducked guys right ???
Holmes isnt vulnerable to jack **** .. certainty not vs Wilder , Fury, Dempsey ?? Frazier ? who is he vulnerable to ?? he is 50-50 vs liston and thats that .. and same with Ali and Louis .. why not ??? why is prime Ali and Louis a huge favorite against Holmes ?? Holmes is a H2H nightmare

 

I admire Larry Holmes alot my first career set was Larry Holmes, which my dad bought me when i was kid. And 3 of his fights vs Witherspoon, Norton, Weaver, are some of my favourite Heavyweight fights of all time. And he's actually my favourite Heavyweight of all time believe it not. But i recognize that he could be vulnerable in fights, he struggled immensely vs Witherspoon, Weaver, and was floored heavily and almost stopped in a few others. I just think against Heavyweights like Louis, Liston, Tyson, those 3 especially because of their finishing abilities i think Holmes may come unstuck. Holmes showed great heart in the ring and great ability to comeback from sticky situations, but i question whether he could do it against the likes of Liston, who also had a great jab which Holmes struggled against in a few fights.