Why did dominant super tall heavyweights only emerge relatively recently?

I'd tentatively take the Fury from Wilder 2 over any version of Usyk.

 

No the question which was posed and always is was and is where are all the smaller men champs? The answer is in the cruiser weight division. The occasional one jumps up and often times find success. It doesn’t mean that there aren’t exception big men talent like Lewis and Wlad and maybe Fury. But it doesn’t discount the fact that smaller men could beat them if put to the test.
Maybe the question should be why were the giants of the past for most of boxing history not the best?

 

So you mean that there have been potential undisputed HW champions who just couldn't get above 190 lbs (which was the limit for the first ca 25 years) without compromising their effectiveness? Which fighters are you thinking of in particular? Because the most dominant champions have in general moved up. Briedis haven't, but surely you don't mean he couldn't make 200+ without any issues?

 

IMO, the biggest advantage that bigger fighters have over smaller fighters is that they don't have to be at their absolute best all the time. Small heavyweights like Tyson and Frazier were capable of beating big fighters when they were completely motivated and in their best condition, but as soon as their desire or conditioning slacked off, they were defeated by bigger fighters. A Tyson or Frazier might beat one of the new giant fighters in a one off fight, but having to fight 5-10 fighters in a row to get to the title fight, while giving up 7-9 inches of height and 35-65 pounds would probably be too much for them. One fight in which either of them was less than 100% and they probably lose in a bad way. Big fighters can afford an off night, they can gain weight, or not train as hard because their fight does not rely on conditioning and desire as much. A big fighter like Tyson Fury (or an Ali in his era) on an off night could fight a "boring" defensive fight, hold a lot, use his jab and win. That type fight is not an option for a Tyson or Frazier.

 

Again, you said "As far as big men go, they are only best because Cruiserweights have a division now".

During the past quarter of a century the lineal HW champion has been 6ft 5ins+ for c.98% of the time. I took your above statement as you suggesting if there was no CW division, then fighters who in reality had been competing at CW during that time, would have been at HW, where they would have established themselves as the lineal HW champion/best HW in the world. Is that what you meant?

The question you pose at the end of your post is the essence of this thread and there have been multiple potential explanations offered, including by me.

 

As the skill level amongst boxers has gradually decreased over the last 30 years or so, the size advantages of the larger heavyweights have had a bigger impact on the outcomes of fights.

 

My understanding has always been that there are no minimum weight limits in pro boxing, only maximum, aside from HW, which is the open class. When SRR challenged Joey Maxim for his LHW title, he weighed under the MW limit. Henry Armstrong was under the LW limit when he won the WW title from Barney Ross and again for some of his defences. I appreciate that the rules may have changed without my knowledge.

Either way, & I have no intention to come across as disrespectful to @Gazelle Punch, but I can only call it as I see it, and the notion that the 6ft 5ins+ lineal HW champs wouldn't have been the best HWs in the world if the CW division was never created, is erroneous* (it may be that Gazelle Punch did not mean this). Firstly, any fighter who could beat the best HW in the world, would fight at HW, as that's where the most money is. Secondly, we've had multiple examples of CW champs stepping up to challenge the best HWs during the time that the lineal HW champ was 6ft 5ins+. Haye was lineal CW champ, he stepped up to HW & Wlad schooled him. Prior to Haye, Mormeck was the lineal CW champ, an admittedly faded Mormeck was destroyed in a horrible physical mismatch vs Wlad. The lineal CW champ after Haye was Adamek, he was dominated in a disgusting physical mismatch vs a 40-year old Vitali. Whilst never lineal at CW, there were times that both Huck & Cunningham had a claim to being the best CW in the world, a Povetkin that Wlad shut out, beat Huck in a competitive fight, whilst a green contender Fury KO'd Cunningham. Lewis, Wlad & Fury* have been lineal HW champs because during their reigns, there was no fighter of any weight that could beat them, regardless of whether the CW division was in existence.

*The only possible exception is that if the CW division didn't exist and Usyk had fought at HW his whole career, it's at least plausible that he would have won lineage from Fury at some point, though I wouldn't put money on that myself.

p.s. I appreciate that you likely agree with all that Bokaj, I was just adding to my thoughts in a response to your post about minimum weight limits at HW.

 

If not for Emanual Steward Wlad and Lewis would not have been as successful.

Also the crustier weight division has taken a lot of boxers between 220 and 200.

Another thing is that If Matches were still 15 rounds the preparation for that kind of fight would bring weights down 10 or even 20 pounds maybe. And not only that but the longer a fight is the harder it is for a very large man generally.

Having a longer reach is a great advantage especially if you tie up well on the inside. Possibly Emanual Steward and others have done a better job at training tall fighters to use their reach better.

 

Yeah, as you said, historically we have several examples of fighters fighting at HW despite being below the limit for the weight class under. Conn being another example. Do anyone know if this has changed?

Even if it has changed most CW champions of note have weighed in right at the limit, probably after cutting in most cases, so being above wouldn't be an obstacle for them anyhow. And, as we both have noted, the best ones have generally given it a go and only Holy has had enough success to be considered ATG at the weight. And he put on a fair bit of weight to get there.

I just can't see what potential HW great we've had that was trapped at CW, if that's even a thing you can be.

 

Completely agree, on all points

 

Not disrespectful at all. I certainly don’t mind other view points.

I was not implying that Lewis or Wlad would not be champions. I did say they r exceptional talents. I’m not so sure history plays out the same though if no cruiser division and no steroids. We have had two men 6”3 and under hold the lineal in Ruiz and Usyk (if u consider AJ was lineal after Fury retired and was shamed for roids which I do).

my overall feeling is that without steroids and without a cruiser division men would prob weigh a lot less because they’d have the same problems AJ had w Usyk (complaining he couldn’t keep up w his work rate). Men would have to sacrifice the extra weight for better stamina if they want to be able to compete w larger work rates. We r going all over the place w Convo on this thread I honestly forget what the original points were so if I’m off on something let me know lol

 

The skill level maybe dropped from prior eras.

Wilder would have been exposed in the 80s and 90s for his lack of boxing skill

 

My dad was 6 ft 2 and im 5ft 9. The totality of one's DNA throws in unforeseen curves.

That said my brother in law is 5 9 and my sister 5 4 yet one son is 6 4 and the other 6 2

My dad's height gene seemed to be there for his grand sons

 

HW champions of the modern era being lighter without PEDs is feasible, and probably likely, imo.

Depending on how you see the CW versions of Holyfield and Uysk vs M Tyson and T Fury respectively, the advent of the CW division has either had no (my view), or only a very brief, impact on who has been the best HW in the world.

 

Because there was no cruiser weight category back then. Look how all the current HW are struggling to deal with someone as fast as Usyk. All of the people who would be HW champ are fighting in lower weight classes. Like Crawford. He’s 5,11 taller than the likes of Tyson and Marciano but he’s fighting at welter. Also the weight you had to be for HW used to be a lot lower. There were tall guys like Carnera but they didn’t do well against their much faster smaller counter parts. People like Bivol, Beterbiev and Canelo would be fighting at HW if the weight you had to be was the same as it was back in the day.