Was Holyfield beating Tyson really a massive upset?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023.


?

Poll closed Feb 27, 2023.

  1. Yes

    34 vote(s)
    53.1%

  2. No

    30 vote(s)
    46.9%
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  1. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    A few things you fail to mention.

    Mercer was coming off of a draw vs Marion Wilson, and had gone 1-1 with Jesse Ferguson recently. Mercer was going through a bad patch in his career after Holmes loss, and was not that highly rated coming into the fight with Holyfield. So i don't think anyone was blown away by Holyfield winning a close decision vs Mercer, who had been struggling for the past 3 years in his career, this win only looks better with hindsight.

    As for the Bowe fight for the most part Holyfield looked bad in this fight, and appeared to have no energy for large periods in the fight. With commentators thinking he'd aged over night, and were worried for his health. Yes credit to Holyfield for landing the left hook on Bowe, but what is more alarming is that Holyfield had no energy to take advantage of the knockdown. Most people believed Holyfield was coming towards the end of his career after the 3rd Bowe fight.

    Dropped twice vs Bowe.

    A fat unmotivated Douglas who didn't even turn up to the fight, Holyfield didn't even get credit for the win back then. So i'm not sure what beating a fat unmotivated Douglas in 1990, has to do with how people thought Holyfield would do vs Tyson 1996. Considering many people thought he looked shot vs Bowe 3, Moorer, 1. And then he had another poor performance against Czyz leading up to the Tyson fight.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
    Dynamicpuncher, Feb 20, 2023
    Dynamicpuncher, Feb 20, 2023
    #16
    Entaowed likes this.
  2. FrankinDallas

    FrankinDallas FRANKINAUSTIN

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    At the time I considered Tyson a mentally defeated bully who was waiting for a beating. So no, wasn't a big upset IMO.
    Prior to Douglas and 3+ yrs in prison...that's another story.
     
    FrankinDallas, Feb 20, 2023
    FrankinDallas, Feb 20, 2023
    #17
  3. The Professor

    The Professor Socialist Ring Leader Staff Member

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    Ron Borges of the Boston Globe was the only major boxing journalist of the time who correctly predicted the result.

    Yes, this was a major upset. Holyfield was considered to be shopworn at the time, as unbelievable as this may seem today. Modern boxing fans would call this a "cherry pick."
     
    The Professor, Feb 20, 2023
    The Professor, Feb 20, 2023
    #18
    Dynamicpuncher likes this.
  4. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "With the benefit of 30 years' hindsight"

    Hindsight isn't required, all of the facts I mentioned were easily available at the time.

    "Tyson had had his wobble against Douglas"

    This is the kind of pro-Tyson bias/hype I'm talking about. You call it a wobble, I call it a demolition of Tyson by what was regarded as a fringe contender or even a journeyman. The fact that so many wrote this off as a "wobble" or a fluke shows the irrationality involved.

    "And Holyfield was a jumped-up Cruiser"

    Sure but so was Tyson in all but name. Boxing fans have this strange idea that if you're a 5'10 heavy with short arms, sub-215 lbs in your 20's but never had a cruiser bout, you're a natural heavy. But in functional terms Holyfield was the bigger man, with another 3.5 inches of height and 6.5 inches of reach, while only being 7 lbs lighter at 215 but ripped to shreds. And he'd had 3 life and death wars with Bowe, so competing with far bigger heavies than Tyson clearly wasn't impossible for him.

    "If Tyson as an entity was a little less knowable than he had been, after his time out"

    "After his time out" is another euphemism which I'm sure people bought into. I call it 4+ years of inactivity, almost all of it in prison. While you're in prison you are very likely deteriorating as a boxer, physically, technically and mentally, especially on a relatively long sentence.

    "Those odds do seem a bit naive though!"

    Indeed. Given the facts available they were insane, which is why the consensus among gamblers was that Holyfield was grossly undervalued. And Tyson was a solid favourite to beat Holyfield even after Holyfield 1!
     
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    #19
  5. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    There was a flood of money on Holyfield after Tyson had opened at 1/25, so gamblers on the whole believed that Holyfield was being grossly undervalued and had a much better chance than the bookies were giving him. You're right that the overwhelming majority of people favoured Tyson but given the facts available I don't think it was a big upset. Tyson was favourite in the Holyfield rematch as well, as bizarre as that is. I don't think that was an upset in the slightest but it was considered a moderate one at the time.
     
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    #20
  6. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "So i don't think anyone was blown away by Holyfield winning a close decision vs Mercer"

    Except Mercer went 50-50 with Lewis before Holyfield-Tyson 1, so the win had appreciated by then. Mercer easily could have been given a draw against Lewis, whereas Holyfield won 96-93 by consensus, knocking Mercer down for the only time in his career before Wlad at 41.

    "As for the Bowe fight for the most part Holyfield looked bad in this fight"

    Holyfield was ahead 66-65 on all of the scorecards and had knocked Bowe down for the first time in his career. It's easy to look good against overmatched/terrified opponents.

    "A fat unmotivated Douglas"

    Holyfield still turned up ultra-motivated to blow Tyson's conqueror away.

    "Considering many people thought he looked shot vs Bowe 3, Moorer"

    Funny how Holyfield magically looked non-shot in between those two fights against Mercer over 10 rounds, no "heart problems" there.

    People were not looking at the facts objectively, being ultra-critical of Holyfield while dismissing what were obviously massive black marks against Tyson (being smashed by a "journeyman", 4 years in prison, prolonged inactivity).
     
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    #21
  7. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The fact is Mercer was not ranked in the top 10 when Holyfield fought him, and had been struggling against journeyman fighters like Wilson, Ferguson. The Mercer fight was seen as a comeback fight for Holyfield, after his poor performance against Moorer, Mercer was thought of as finished at the top level. Yes Mercer did go on to give Lewis a good fight, but you have to remember American's were still not overly sold on Lewis at this point. He was still going through his rebuilding phase after the shock KO loss to McCall.

    So i don't think anyone at the time looked at the Mercer fight, and thought Holyfield would be the favourite against Tyson based on that. Considering Holyfield lost to Bowe in which he looked faded, and then had a lackluster performance against Czyz.

    Yes but you fail to mention to context regarding what actually happened in the fight, Holyfield for large periods in the fight was lackluster and appeared to lack energy. Commentators were worried for his health and he seemed to be washed up as a fighter, yes as i already stated he did land a good left hook on Bowe, but he had no energy to follow up on the knockdown. And after the fight everyone thought Bowe would go on to do great things, and that the warrior Holyfield was finished as a fighter. As it turns it was the opposite way round, but no one knew that at the time without hindsight.

    And ? what has beating an unmotivated fat Douglas in 1990, got to do with anything regarding Holyfield's chances against Tyson in 1996 ? Holyfield looked shot after the 3rd Bowe fight, had a poor performance vs Moorer 1, and then prior to the Tyson fight had a lackluster showing against Czyz. So why would anyone make Holyfield the favourite based on those fights ? because he beat Douglas in 1990 ? who was clearly not in anyway the same version of Douglas in Tokyo ? that makes no sense. No one would look at the Douglas fight in 1996 and say to themselves "I make Holyfield favourite for beating a fat unmotivated Douglas from 6 years ago, and lets ignore Holyfield's recent fights vs Bowe 3, Moorer 1, Czyz.

    I never brought up heart problems you did, but now i know your "ShortRound" because we had this exact same discussion before on that account which you got banned. And i can tell from your posting style that you are "ShortRound" aswell. So now i'm aware of who are you, i know it's a waste of my time for me to continue this conversation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
    Dynamicpuncher, Feb 20, 2023
    Dynamicpuncher, Feb 20, 2023
    #22
    Wizbit1013 likes this.
  8. Easyrhino

    Easyrhino Member Full Member

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    Evander Holyfield (AKA Evan Fields) was roided to the gills and should have never have been allowed in the ring.
     
    Easyrhino, Feb 20, 2023
    Easyrhino, Feb 20, 2023
    #23
  9. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "Yes Mercer did go on to give Lewis a good fight, but you have to remember American's were still not overly sold on Lewis at this point"

    The main criticism levelled at Lewis was that he had a glass chin. He was regarded as big, powerful, athletic and skilled for a man of his size and had beaten Morrison, Bruno, Tucker, Ruddock, mostly by KO. So if Holyfield's 96-93 win over Mercer wasn't rated highly after Lewis had gone 50-50 with Mercer, that can only be due to hype and delusion.

    "So i don't think anyone at the time looked at the Mercer fight, and thought Holyfield would be the favourite against Tyson based on that."

    There's a clear difference between Holyfield being favourite and it not being a massive upset. Tyson opened as -1800 or -2500 depending on the source, that's insane and always was insane based on the available facts.

    "Holyfield for large periods in the fight was lackluster and appeared to lack energy"

    "And after the fight everyone thought Bowe would go on to do great things"

    Why would "everyone" think that Bowe would go on to do great things if he had to come from behind to win against a Holyfield who was "lacklustre" for "large periods" of the fight? The only way Holyfield could be ahead after 7 rounds while being lacklustre is if Bowe was even worse, thus probably not looking like he'd go on to do great things.

    "what has beating an unmotivated fat Douglas in 1990, got to do with anything regarding Holyfield's chances against Tyson in 1996"

    Holyfield demolishing Douglas showed that he was ultra-motivated to beat Tyson's conqueror, which suggested that he would be ultra-motivated to beat Tyson.

    "I never brought up heart problems you did"

    Whatever excuses you want to make for Holyfield not looking good in x or y fight clearly didn't apply to the Mercer fight and Holyfield had a history of raising his game in big fights, especially when he was being doubted or written off.

    I get that there were good reasons to doubt Holyfield going in to Tyson 1. But there were also huge reasons to doubt Tyson, which were irrationally being overlooked.
     
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    Redbeard7, Feb 20, 2023
    #24
  10. Moggy94

    Moggy94 Active Member Full Member

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    You left out that Holyfield had previously retired due to health/heart problems. It's easy to say "I knew Holyfield was gonna win!" 27 years later, but no one actually did back then.
     
    Moggy94, Feb 22, 2023
    Moggy94, Feb 22, 2023
    #25
    MarkusFlorez99 likes this.
  11. northpaw

    northpaw Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I remember before the first fight people were saying Evander was worn out and washed up and Tyson was gonna destroy him. Evander had looked "mortal" in a number of fights and Tyson had ran over every opponent post prison.

    So yeah, I'd say it was a fairly big upset.
     
    northpaw, Feb 22, 2023
    northpaw, Feb 22, 2023
    #26
    MarkusFlorez99 likes this.
  12. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    "health/heart problems"

    That was the excuse for losing to Moorer but Holyfield didn't get dropped or stopped over 12, which you'd expect of a man supposedly suffering cardiac problems. From Mercer to Bowe 3 to Czyz to Tyson, Holyfield was fighting every 6 months like clockwork.

    I know there were reasons to doubt Holyfield but there were plenty of reasons to doubt Tyson too, which were being overlooked. None of what I said in my original post was hidden knowledge, highly subjective or only came out after the fact.
     
    Redbeard7, Feb 22, 2023
    Redbeard7, Feb 22, 2023
    #27
  13. snake33

    snake33 Active Member Full Member

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    Tyson, post Rooney wasn't the same guy. His style required hard work and dedication and he had lost that. This made him more and more vulnerable as he went along. He still would have had trouble with a tall boxer puncher like Lewis but would have done better against several guys if his mind was right.
     
    snake33, Feb 22, 2023
    snake33, Feb 22, 2023
    #28
  14. vast

    vast Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Tyson had that aura of invincibility. But he turned out to be no match for the roided up Holyfield.
     
    vast, Feb 22, 2023
    vast, Feb 22, 2023
    #29
  15. weepaul

    weepaul Member Full Member

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    A few things…
    I’m old so I got to live this s**t in real time.
    Nobody was expecting Holyfield to win, most of all Tyson.

    Holyfield seemed to gas out in 3 rounds against Moorer and then was told he had a heart condition…
    He go’s to an evangelist who touches him with the hand of God and miraculously cures him…
    Most people thought he was fu**ing nuts at this point!!!

    He then gets stopped by Bowe in the first stoppage loss of his career…

    Then the face first, pumped up middleweight Czyz gave Holyfield a torrid time before he quit, claiming there was a substance in his eyes.
    Holyfield looked completely shot to **** by this point.

    I lost a fortune on this fight and I didn’t even bet on a winner… I bet that the fight would go under.
    I gave Holyfield no chance in this fight after his performance against Czyz and the fact he struggled with a smaller, much shittier version of Tyson in Bert Cooper.
    Betting $1000 on Holyfield at the offshore books would get you $25,000 but I thought he had no chance as Tyson absolutely crushed small heavyweights like Frazier or guys who moved up in weight such as Ratliff, Spinks and Tillman.
    I’m not comparing Holyfield to those guys but at the time, this seemed to be the worst possible version of Holyfield and I thought he was going to get dummied quickly…

    I couldn’t believe how rejuvenated Holyfield looked that night and I knew after the first round that Tyson was in deep ****!!!

    I wish Tyson had bit his ear off in the first fight as I would have won a fu**ing fortune on the under instead of losing one…
    This fight was the most money I have ever lost on a bet and I have been betting on boxing since Tyson beat Bruno.
     
    weepaul, Feb 23, 2023
    weepaul, Feb 23, 2023
    #30
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