Leotis Martin vs Sonny Liston ABC’s Wide World of Sports 1969 (1080p 60fps)

I was thinking of the end of the previous round where Liston backed him into the ropes. Regardless Liston swung away as Martin was on the ropes.

Or maybe because he was visibly fatigued?

Technique goes out the window and fighters tend to only be able to throw half-assed punches, when exhaustion sets in. Surprised a boxing expert like yourself doesn't know this.

This is by far the weakest evidence you've provided. Aside from the fact it's very blurry, Anyone can pause a fight at a perfect moment when the fighter's facial expression makes it look like they don't want to be there.

He doesn't look like he's "shitting his pants". On the contrary, he'd just thrown 4 jabs. He's exhausted and hurt, particularly after that nasty right counter Martin landed.

 

Shhhh that doesn't fit the agenda we want to portray here.

 

When you said less than a minute before the knockout you were thinking of the previous round?? The final round lasted more than a minute so less than a minute would be the final round. Of course moving the goal posts to suit your agenda is par for the course with you...

You cant see the look of concern on his face in this still taken directly from the above video that everyone was lauding the quality of?? Shhhh somebody might get the idea that this isnt HD after all and instead is an upscaled VHS copy thats been pumped up to 60fps, which it is.

You want to say he was fatigued, fine, whats the old adage: Fatigue makes cowards of us all... Couldnt possibly be that Liston was a bully, seeing as how he quit twice when the going got rough and here looked like a scared child when one of his handpicked opponents actually fought back. But god forbid any criticism befall Liston otherwise it might make your hero Cleveland Williams look bad... Liston turned down $50,000 and a shot at the HW title to instead take on Martin because Martin was the safer bet to keep his tour of never weres going. Martin was the highest ranked fighter Liston had faced since Ali (and frankly Martin didnt deserve his high ranking) and he was knocked out again. In nearly 6 years previous Liston had only 4 fights against rated contenders and he was knocked out in three of them. Clark was as fringe as fringe contenders get and couldnt punch his way out of a wet paper bag.

 

Ernie

 

Liston’s body tone looked like an old man. I think he was older than advertised. He was super slow in this fight too. What a finish by Martin - Liston was out after the big right hand but Martin left no doubt finishing him off

 

Clark was good enough to beat Leotis Martin.

 

I dunno Klomp. Alternatively it could be the look of an already tired, old man now choking on copious amounts of his own blood, markedly compounding his breathing woes.

They say some people have the same facial expression whether they’re experiencing the Big O or taking a dump - just say’n’.

In this instance, I’m opting for a heavily swollen, aged, substance addicted, inherently fatigued Liston struggling to breathe also by virtue of his own blood “look”.

Of course we know a younger Liston, under heavy fire, had his nose broken by Big Cat - breathing not so impaired by his own blood - only for Sonny to come roaring back and win by KO.

 

So was Roger Russell with only ten wins under his belt. Whats your point? Martin and Clark were two of least threatening fringe contenders an aging Liston was willing to face and, again, Clark the only rated contender Liston beat since his second fight with Patterson couldnt punch to save his life. Like Ive said before, Liston wasnt taking any chances at this point in his career. Not for a title and not for a single large payday that might get him a loss that would send him into oblivion. It was a lot easier to fight bums like Willis Earls and Sonny Moore for $5,000 and $10,000 a pop while pretending you are hunting for a title. Taking on Martin wasnt exactly a big risk. He was easily the most vulnerable fighter in his very brief tenure in the top 5 and Liston was familiar with him, gaving sparred with him previously. The fact that he was knocked out cold says a lot more about Liston and ridiculous fantasies some have of him fighting Frazier. If you coukdnt drag Liston into the ring with Quarry, Chuvalo, or Ellis you sure arent getting him anywhere near Frazier and if hes getting gassed and knocked out by Leotis Martin you can see why. Hed have been run out of the ring and if he didnt get knocked out cold he would have quit.

 

Fighting Frazier is hardly a ridiculous fantasy as Liston himself felt Frazier was stylistically perfect for him. He probably wanted a shot at Frazier without taking risks though. Foreman was nearly stopped late by Jimmy Young and stopped by Ali yet demolished a prime Frazier.

Frazier probably has to survive the early rounds to stop Liston and there is no guarantee he could do that given his come forward aggressive style that involved taking a lot of punishment. Moreover I don't think Liston in late 1969 is necessarily the fighter of 1967/68

 

If Liston thought Quarry and Ellis and Chuvalo were too much of a risk to take before facing Frazier then he didnt have much hope of beating Frazier. Its always said that Liston thought Frazier was made to order for him but seriously did Liston ever say he was concerned that anyone wouldnt be made to order for him? He also said more than once that Ali would be made to order for him. How did that turn out? If Liston is trying to pretend hes actually interested in a run at the title would you expect him to say that Frazier was a difficult opponent? Of course not. The fact of the matter is that Ellis was the shortest route to winning another championship and had more states recognizing him and he turned that fight down. Liston was simply not interested in taking risks at this point. People who think he was A. seriously chasing another title and B. a serious threat to the title are deluded.

 

It doesn't take a genius though to see that Frazier's aggressive come forward style and propensity to take a lot of punishment might not bode well for someone like Liston who even past prime possessed considerable power. When Frazier fought a big puncher in Foreman he was brutally demolished despite the same Foreman being easily beaten by Ali.

As far as Liston not talking fights with Ellis and Quarry again not sure how meaningful that is. Foreman didn't fight them either and was very carefully matched going into his fight with Frazier. And I think Liston would easily beat Chuvalo for one.

 

Was Liston frozen out for his alleged mafia ties? Honestly his resume post Ali is awfully weak for a big time name in the division. He was frozen out by Patterson’s team during his rise to the title, he had a great run of beating quality fighters like Machen, Folley, Harris and Williams 2x. So he clearly clawed his way to the top. But doesn’t look like he wanted to claw his way back to the top. Maybe he was just too old to put his body to the grind against the late 60s talent.

 

I was referring to a separate occasion at the end of the previous round.

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I don't care what everybody was "lauding the quality of". Multiple posters in this thread have agreed with me it's a blurry photo, and they also agree it doesn't portray Liston in the light you think it does.

Did he quit when Valdez shut his eye or when Marshall broke his nose? Fighters who can't deal with adversity don't make it to the top.

Also if you think he quit against Ali in both bouts? Why didn't he quit on his stool, or take a dive as (I presume) you think he did against Ali?

If he was such a quitter, why even come out for that round? He had a busted nose, was breathing through the mouth, and clearly on his last legs. If he was such a quitter why not take the easy way out and stay on your stool, as opposed to getting brutally ko'd?

Make it make sense.

This is the second time, you've brought up Williams in a discussion with me unprompted but I'm the one with the obsession? That's rich.

What does any of this have to do with anything? I wanted to discuss why you thought Liston supposedly quit against Martin, now you're going off on an incoherent tangent about Liston's resume as a geriatric man.

Just say you hate Liston and go.

 

Nobody wanted to touch him after that fiasco in Maine.

 

Weren't there rumors that Liston was maybe a decade older than listed? I believe he wasn't sure his actual date of birth.