Where would you rank Lewis had he retired with an undefeated record?

Rahman was a case of Lewis clowning arrogantly and being caught mid-clown. That was his own stupid fault. I'm not sure if that makes that loss matter less than the other. Had Lewis not acted like that, he'd have won that fight. Not sure how much him winning would really matter.

Not losing to McCall would absolutely help his overall legacy. Also, not Lewis's fault, but having had an actual rematch against McCall would have helped his overall legacy. Lewis "won" because McCall had a mental breakdown in the ring and the ref ended the fight. Does that really count as having beaten McCall?

 

IF Lewis stayed undefeated and if ROY retired after the first tarver fight.,.then the fight of the century or there lack of would be Lewis - RJJ. The greatest fight that never happened, unless he got paid 100 million to face Lennox (as I heard he wanted 100 million for a Holyfield fight).

 

Interesting question!

I don't consider perfect records when gauging fighters this way. I respect the accomplishment, but in the end it's just impressive numbers to me. What matters above all else, is quality of opposition.

Lewis, in my eyes, got KO'd with a hail mary freak punch from McCall. And I think the fight was stopped too fast, they would've never stopped it at that point in the old days, they would've given the champ the chance to go out on the old shield.

The loss to Rahman was pure carelessness on Lennox's part, another freak loss.

The revenge matches did more than vindicate Lewis, they showed him coming back from losses like a true ATG! The Rahman victory even provided us with one of the most brutal & vicious KO's in the history of the HW division.

So overall, If Lewis never lost, he'd still be top 5 or just outside of it for me.

 

Oh man that would be a bad situation for Roy, Lennox would've splattered him.

 

Imo it does. What was he gonna do, give him a rubber match? What if he cried again?

 

I don't think that rematching and defeating McCall and Rahman mattered that much. Everyone already knew that Lewis could beat those guys. The losses are what mattered, because they proved that he could get beaten by that level of opposition. That's what hurts his legacy, and better subsequent performances can't erase it. Rematches matter when it's something like Holyfield vs. Bowe. Holyfield lost the first fight, and when he won the second it didn't undo the loss but instead proved that Holyfield could beat the big man.

If Lewis had never lost those two fights, when talking about fantasy fights with Lewis you'd have to speculate about how someone could possibly beat him. In reality his performances showed a clear avenue to victory against Lewis.

 

It would be very difficult to not include a skilled, hard hitting super heavyweight with a good undefeated record in your top 5. Idk if it would be good enough to make him #1 though because even without his 2 losses his career still wasn't as good as it could have been.

Staying in the amateurs for so long chasing that gold medal slightly hurt his pro career in terms of the quality of his opposition. By the time he had started to make progress as a pro towards the world level, Tyson, Bowe, and Hoylfield had already been champions and were beating the crap out of each other and were already declining. If Lewis managed to beat those 3 at their best, it would make his resume skyrocket to #1 for sure because he could have faced 3 elite A level fighters within the same time frame and that's extremely rare. Beating past prime versions of Tyson/Hoylfield and completely missing Bowe is what really keeps Lewis record from being the absolute best, not just the 2 losses.

 

I’m with you Lev.

Not to be an apologist for Lewis but sometimes it is just numbers.

I mean, to be fair and make the specific distinction in one point of criteria, we should afford greater credit to those who always turned up, for each and every fight.

But we know Lewis was under par (his fault) both times around - and that in itself mightn’t been enough to grant Lewis a get out of jail free card - BUT Lennox did win the rematches and prove with even greater certainty that the losing versions of himself were aberrations.

I think among reasonably competitive and engaged fields (incl. total number of fights), a loss or two is almost naturally to be expected.

Paradoxically, the fighter with losses gets to prove something that the undefeated fighter cannot possibly prove - the ability to regroup and come back from a loss - and undefeated records might warrant closer examination as to the possibility of any eligible challengers that were omitted.

At the least, in H2H ratings, we take the best version and Lewis’ performances in the first McCall and Rahman fights aren’t on the table for that anyway - at least imo.

 

If Lennox Lewis had won the Olympic Gold Medal over a future Hall of Fame World Heavyweight Champion (Bowe) in his last amateur fight (which he did) ... if he'd defeated every man he faced as a pro (which he did) ... if he'd retired as World Champion after stopping a future Hall of Fame World Heavyweight Champ (Klitschko) and never came back (which is what happened) ...

And he also never had any losses ... I'd rate Lennox Lewis #1 all-time at heavyweight.

And, even with the two losses, some days I do. But old habits die hard.

I think, this century, when people who never saw Lewis fight live go back and watch all the films of Lewis, Ali and Louis ...

Lennox Lewis will likely surpass both Joe and Ali at #1 by the fans coming after us.

Joe and Ali lost, too, after all.

But Lennox lost the least times number of times and avenged his two losses. Joe and Ali didn't.

Lennox's in-the-ring accomplishments more than hold up. Joe and Ali were more important than Lewis outside the ring, given what was going on during those times.

But, 100 years or more after Joe and Ali, I don't think their outside-the-ring importance is going to matter as much to fans who are primarily going to rate fighters based on what they see of them in the ring.

 

44-2 is my appropriate IMO

 

I cannot see RJJ against any top modern HW likely being competitive.
However much PEDs he took, great as he was at up to LHW, he was just not a natural HW.
If Holyfield was only 190 & before PEDs-maybe a great fight.
If he or Lewis were seriously declined at HW, possibly.

But prime in real life?
I see little chance for RJJ to even eke out a decision.
He would likely get blasted into the upcoming century.

 

Well said! Exactly as I see it.

 

Lewis undefeated might make him #1

 

I already rate him #3..........i'd probably put him above Louis per the thread.........Ali? I'd have to maybe think about it.....absolutely.