Fighters That Went Downhill, After Suffering A First Defeat?

Jeff Fenech was finished after the second Nelson fight and was never close to the same fighter.

 

Floyd Mayweather JR is best example after he lost to JLC because he had no answer for his strength .. and even after he squeaked by in the rematch ?? and the Maidana fight? . He knew he had to Cherry pick fights if he was going to go up in weight ... which is exactly what he did ... he couldn't hang being active and going after the best .. so he retired, went on vacation, he waited until they lost , got old ,,,, stacked the deck in his favor ...
A fighter with that low output work rate, brittle hands, who is a joe nobody in 80 years of the sport before him if being forced to be active , fight everyone without popularity
ya so I think Floyd is the best fit for this thread

 

Cotto struggled with come forward, high volume pressure fighters and speedy outboxers. The static, low volume Clottey was tailor-made for him.

The fast, powerful Mosley that Cotto fought was both a more difficult stylistic match up and was a better WW than Clottey. Not just a better WW, but substantially better. Look at what an older Mosley did vs Margarito compared to how Clottey got on. Look at their respective careers as a whole. They are on different levels.

More than anything I trust my eyes. It was clear Cotto had lost a step post Margarito 1. He wasn't shot, far from it, but he was past his absolute prime. What fighter wouldn't be after the beating he took?

If we ran a poll, asking "which version of Cotto was better?" and listed "vs Mosley" and "vs Clottey", which do you think would attract more votes? I'm confident it would be vs Mosley.

 

Fernado Vargas took steriods prior to the fight with Oscar De La Hoya if I recall correctly?

 

Leon Spinks after his WIN against Muhammad Ali in the first bout and his loss in the subsquent rematch.

 

He lost to Kid Carew earlier in his career in 1967. Wiki mentions a detached retina and legal blindness in one eye but no confirming citation/link so don't know if that's confirmed.

 

I don't know why your seriously underrating Clottey, how is he tailor made for Cotto ? Hes a 170 pound Welterweight, who's extremely durable, with a very solid defence. No one has ever beaten Clottey easily apart from Pacquiao. Clottey was considered the dark horse of Welterweight division for a long time, and was considered a threat to pretty much every top Welterweight.

Again just because Mosley maybe a better P4P fighter than Clottey, doesn't mean that Clottey doesn't match up well with Cotto in other attributes. As I said hes a huge Welterweight, who's extremely durable, who Cotto could not put a dent in. I didn't see any evidence at all of Cotto being past it vs Clottey, it was just a tough match up for Cotto against a very solid Welterweight at that time.

Cotto barely scrapped by a past it Shane Mosley, and barely scrapped by a prime Joshua Clottey. I don't see that Cotto was that special in Mosley fight, where you think his performance had such an apparent difference to Clottey fight.

 

As I said, Cotto struggled with high volume pressure fighters and speedy outboxers. Clottey was a world class WW, but he was neither of those. If I could bespoke design a world class WW for Cotto, he would be very similar to Clottey.

I agree Mosley was past prime vs Cotto, but more than a year later he destroyed Margarito, who had beaten Clottey. The Mosley that Cotto beat via UD was a demonstrably better WW than the Clottey he beat via SD.

What are your thoughts on the likely outcome of the poll I asked you about?

 

I don't see how you cannot think that Clottey is not a tough match up for Cotto, hes 170 pound very durable Welterweight with a solid defence and very good countering abilities. Yes hes not an overly aggressive pressure fighter, but he stood infront of Cotto forcing him to fight, and his sheer physical presence in the ring, and that fact that Cotto could not hurt him, makes him a tough match up for Cotto. Hes actually kind of like Winky Wright in a way.

Again you keep bringing up Cotto winning a razor thin decision against a past it Mosley, like that's evidence of Cotto's performance being a vastly different to the Clottey fight but it really isn't it. Your not taking into account the size of Clottey, and the fact he was very underrated tough Welterweight who's a handful for most.

Lastly even if you want to use the Clottey fight to further your argument, then what's the argument for Cotto having other impressive wins after the Clottey fight ? He also gave Mayweather one of the toughest fights of his career.

 

We are going round in circles. I've explained to you why Clottey does not have either of the styles that Cotto most struggled with.

Mosley more than a year after Cotto utterly obliterated Margarito. Margarito beat Clottey. The Mosley that Cotto beat via UD was a better Welterweight than the Clottey he beat via SD.

For the 3rd time, if we made a poll "which version of Cotto was better?" Listing the versions vs Mosley and Clottey, which do you think would get more votes?

 

David Bey.
The guy was like 14-0 and he promised he would beat the great Holmes in his next fight for Larry’s IBF belt.
After all he’d just beaten the talented Greg Page and the future was looking bright for DB.

But Holmes stopped him, and Bey never really looked good again, ending his career losing 10 out of his last 14/15 fights.

 

Yes but the reason why we keep going round in circles, is that your not looking at both sides of the argument.

Heres a fact for you regarding Clottey before his fight with Cotto, he had 2 losses at this point in his career. 1 was a dubious DQ against Baldomir in which he was easily ahead in the fight. The other was a close decision loss to Margarito, who he dominated for the first 4 rounds until he broke his hand.

Clottey was one of the biggest Welterweights easily weighing in as a Super Middleweight, he has an excellent defence. So how is that not a tough match up for Cotto ? You keep saying he doesn't have the style to trouble Cotto. But yet you don't think a 170 pound Welterweight, who stood right in front of Cotto with an excellent defence, forcing Cotto to fight with his physical presence and methodical pressure is not troublesome for Cotto ? Well then I'm actually baffled honestly.

Again as for Mosley being rated higher than Clottey, what your failing to realize is that Clottey has other attributes which Mosley doesn't have like size, great defence, etc. So whilst Clottey isn't rated as high as Mosley, he has other attributes that can be equally as troublesome for Cotto. Especially since Clottey was in his prime, where as Mosley was a bit faded.

Finally as for your poll make the thread if you want I'm not really bothered, Shane Mosley is not comparable to a 170 pound Welterweight with a great defence. And your argument doesn't hold up because Cotto had impressive performances after Clottey fight, which further proves that infact it was due to Clottey being a tough opponent Cotto, rather than Cotto's form dipping considerably.

 

Clottey obviously was a tough match up for Cotto and i havent said otherwise. Ive said he didn't have either style that Cotto struggled most with.

Clottey had a tight guard, decent hand speed, decent power and as you say, was physically strong at WW. He had slow feet and low volume. He would hold the style advantage against fighters who came to him and tried to outmuscle him. Ironically the destroyer LWW version of Cotto is a good example of a fighter he would hold a style advantage over, but not the more mobile, box and move, WW version.

A prime Cotto could be outboxed at range by a fast, rangy and/or slick outboxers. He could be overwhelmed or outworkied by a relentless high volume, pressure fighters. Neither of those applied to Clottey.

Cotto was obviously not shot and was still world class for the Clottey fight and beyond. It was not the apex of his career, though.

You can state Clottey's in the ring fight weight as often as you like (perhaps such an extreme weight drain contributed to his low output? After all, if rehydrating 23lbs only meant advantages, no disadvantages, all fighters would do it), he clearly wasn't as good a WW as Mosley. Which WW did Clottey beat that was as good as Margarito? Bear in mind that - 1) Mosley fought Margarito more than a year after Cotto, he would have slipped a little further by then; and 2) Mosley didn't just beat Margarito, he utterly obliterated him, demonstrated he was, despite being smaller, in a different league to him.

 

I agree with alot of what you said, and again as I've stated few times Mosley is better than Clottey I agree. But certain attributes Clottey had like size, defence, make him just as tough for Cotto in that regard.

As for what you said about Clottey, I think his biggest problem was he never really had a 2nd gear. And I don't think he had that warrior mentality to really go all out and get the W. Against Pacquiao he went into a shell, against Margarito after hurting his hand he went into shell, and didn't try and take a risk to try and get the W.

As for Cotto I think it was due to him fighting better opposition, that he added more losses to his resume after his 1st defeat to Margarito. Let's be real hes never beating Mayweather, Pacquiao, and Trout was the bigger man and a Southpaw is just a bad style match up for Cotto.

I like Cotto as a fighter but I always felt he was a bit vulnerable, he struggled immensely vs Torres, Corley, at Jr Welterweight. And whilst his durability improved somewhat moving up to Welterweight, he still was badly stunned by Judah, and barely scrapped by a past it Mosley.

I think overall looking at Cotto's career it's not that surprising that he would struggle against Clottey, and I think it was due to Clottey being a tough opponent rather than Cotto being faded.

 

Tito was one of the names that first came to mind for me. Of course, he beat Mayorga post Hopkins and no shame in losing to Wright really.