Jack Dempsey openly stated he would not fight black challengers

Yeah, specific cases and overall determinations aside, the stand alone argument of having black sparring partners to offset claims of racism has never made any sense to me. In fact, having black sparring partners and racially precluding them in all other respects makes the individual look worse, prejudiced and also hypocritically applied at their convenience. Are you racist? Why no. Some of my BEST sparring partners are black. Okay.....

 

The times were different, Dempsey should have fought Wills but I have little doubt he wouldve had much of a problem with him.

 

The KKK were gaining some real momentum the same time Dempsey held the title.Memberships were through the roof,It was fashionable.It was also Red Summer in Chicago July 1919 after a black boy strayed into a whites only section of the beach that resulted in 15 white + 23 black people killed there alone.Race riots sprang up in the great US of A yet again.Thats the same month Jack Dempsey raised the Worlds Heavyweight title.Thats just one incident that happened in the nations never ending bloody history with racism.

Not once have i read that Jack Dempsey say he would not fight "******s",Never.

Seeing as he's been mentioned a fair few times already in this thread,The fearless Harry Greb did say it in front of a crowd with Panama Joe Gans in the ring.The same move pulled on Dempsey with Joe Jeanette.Judging from some posts here Dempsey is painted as a kind of coward Grand imperial Wizard of the Klan when he clearly was not.

Sometimes people dont like it but facts are facts its not hero worshipping! The Worlds Heavyweight title was on a totally different planet to any other title at the time,The same as saying "Negro" or "******"

Politics is a worm that was spoiling sports and its events like it is now

 

Dollars talked, if they thought that a Wills fight would have made them mega bucks it would have occurred.

We must not forget that Dempsey was not the most prolific defender of his world title, only doing so six times in a seven year reign.

The Wills fight should have happened, the fact he likely would have lost against Dempsey is a side issue, as several of Dempseys title defences were similar in that regard.

 

Both Kearns and Rickard were on record saying the fight would do 3mil. Lets see what the next excuse is. Weve only had about a dozen that have been smashed to bits.

 

The problem with trying to create a false equivalence between Greb and Dempsey is that while Greb did refuse to fight the then largely unknown Panama Joe Gans who was a last minute replacement (the third or fourth for that fight) that Greb had never agreed to while using race as an excuse, less than a year later he was fighting Panama’s stable mate Kid Norfolk who was about 30+ pounds heavier than Gans, far more dangerous, and more well known. Meanwhile Dempsey was telling the world he would fight the winner of Wills-Fulton only to sign to fight the dying Billy Miske who had literally just cone out of a doctor enforced retirement due to ill health and whose last fight against an opponent of any note was a one sided loss to light heavyweight Battling Levinsky. Dempsey literally signed to fight Miske the day after Wills knocked out Fulton by crushing three of his ribs with a bodyshot. So be my guest. Draw comparisons between Dempsey’s behavior in 1919/1920 and Grebs. Lets see how that goes…

 

Old Billy sure took a long time dying and his record post Dempsey holds up pretty well imo.
That said I don't excuse Dempsey for not fighting his number one challenger for several years.
I think he would have stopped Harry and dramatically enhanced his reputation, but that's by the by.
The fight never happened and it should have.

At the risk of inviting an avalanche of disdainful ,and withering scorn
I find the statement below rather misleading
"whose last fight against an opponent of any note was a one sided loss to light heavyweight Battling Levinsky."
A month before that fight Miske had drawn with Brennan ,and a month prior to that had drawn with Gibbons ,so it isn't as if he was being beaten up by trial horses is it?.
You have a great deal of knowledge of the era, nobody here seriously doubts that, but truly it would be so much more pleasurable to read your insights if you could drop the sneering condescension ,and no, I don't think we are particularly thick skinned.
I'm a Dempsey fan,so it's entirely probable I am not objective about him,that must be said,equally you are not a fan and to my eyes at least, I don't think you are objective about Dempsey,
I've never read a single positive line from you about the man, nor for that matter ,a negative one about Greb.
Just an observation.

 

Can we have sources for these statements please?

Three Million seems an awful lot of $$$$ for the 20's?

 

Well i will admit that i had never heard that both Kearns and Rickard were on record as saying a bout between Dempsey and Wills would do 3 mil.

I of course have heard the quote from Rickard of "A black heavyweight champion would not be worth a bucket of warm p*ss."

 

Hi Buddy.
Not seen that quote before, Tex didn't mince his words did he, so he obvs was against the fight, lest he lose his meal ticket, and all Rickard was ever concerned about was the big buck.
stay safe amigo.

 

Jack Curley and Jim Coffroth made similar statements,focusing more on why they would not match Johnson with black challengers ,because the predominantly white audience would not care who won if the status quo remained Mike Jacobs was reluctant to match Louis with black challengers because he thought they would not draw.I realise it is a different issue but it does involve the prospect of a black man ascending to the then richest prize in sports. Nat Fleischer campaigned for Wills to get his shot in his newly formed Ring which was rather a risky thing to do imo,but I'm unaware that there was a real groundswell of support for Wills? Support that he certainly deserved I might add. Perhaps our resident expert on this era will correct me?

 

Its still the same Greb & Dempsey debates with yourself at the frontlines on this website,Fair play to you and your persistence

I was addressing the racism angle anyway not statistics or contracts or who the legendary Greb destroyed.Racism was mentioned in the opening post.

"Even leaving aside the racism does this not impact his legacy by him openly ducking challengers?"

Couple of pages later

"I always love the idiots who try to pretend that because Dempsey employed some black sparring partners as “the help” that he wasnt racist. Lol. Tell that to a generation of southern ex slave holders who employed black servants while doing everything they could to keep black peopke from gaining equal rights."


"Are you racist? Why no. Some of my BEST sparring partners are black. Okay"

Greb said "******s" to a crowd (Boxing Fans) who didn't like it one bit.The derogatory term not the more common term at the time "Negro".

Jack Dempsey had enough sense not to say the derogatory term and you have yourself and others here yapping on about the racism angle while dismissing Dempsey helping black fighters and the times itself.

I can play that game too,So what if Greb fought black fighters perhaps Greb was that much of maniac racist he loved beating up black fighters.Not nice is it

You simply cant ignore what was going on in America at the time,A country and its people still today obsessed with racism.Perhaps a thread on race riots or lynchings from 1910 - 1930 will help?


"People who dont know their ass from their elbow aside, the fact of the matter is that Dempsey was protected because he was a cash cow. When Siki beat Carpentier there were no race riots. When Flowers beat Greb there were no race riots. When Wills beat Fulton, Weinert, Firpo, Madden, and other white men in elimination bouts there were no race riots. If there was a such a fear of race riots why did the vast majority of the public and press consistently vote that Wills was not only the most dangerous contender for Dempsey but deserved a shot?"

Siki vs George was in France,Not America.Light Heavyweight title.Siki was shot dead Killed in New York City during Jack Dempsey's reign.Still unsolved like the thousands of other racially motivated murders

Flowers beating Greb was not for the Heavyweight title.Well over 200,000 thousand people paid to watch Dempsey vs Tunney 1 +2 in stadiums.Big difference to Madison Sq Gardens and its 16,000 boxing fans.

Wills beating contenders and boxing fans and boxing writers calling for a match is only natural.Its how it should be

Im sure if the match was made between Wills & Dempsey the media hype would have been extraordinary,Everyone would know it was happening,Everyone including the casuals + racists who'd never heard of Harry Wills before then would have jumped on the bandwagon for the biggest prize in Sports.

Blame that shithole The United States of America not Jack Dempsey

 

So I guess Miske and his doctors were lying a year before the Dempsey fight when it was made known that he was forced to retire due to his health issues... I guess Jack Dempsey was lying when he said he defended against Miske to help him earn a good payday because he knew Miske was dying... Weve been round and round about this but the fact is you will ignore anything that doesnt jive with what you believe. Ive explained to you, many times before, that Brights disease, which is an old generic term for Kidney disease goes through periods of remission and flare ups. A person being able to fight doesnt mean they arent dying. It also doesnt mean they are 100 percent healthy. And some of the press at Miske's camp and the fight described as having a sickly grey palor. And yes, he did draw against Brennan and Gibbons well over a year before getting a title shot and well over a year before getting a title shot. But what he didnt do was beat either of those men. Do you seriously want to argue that Miske deserved a title shot. Really? A guy who failed to win his last four fights of note, goes into retirement due to ill health, comes out to fight one literal nobody and then winds up in a title shot? A title shot signed right after Wills knocks out Fulton in a title eliminator that Dempsey sayd he will fight the winner??? Get real. You cant even argue that with a straight face.

 

So by that logic Dempsey could have defended his title outside of the USA for one of the numerous promoters that offered him a chance to fights Wills on foreign soil. He didnt.

If its unsolved how do you know it was racially motivated? Or do you care to solve it for us Inspector Clouseau?

The middleweight championship was the second most prestigious title in the sport. And Madison Square Garden was operated at the time by Tex Rickard, you know, the guy who was supposedly scared of mixed race matches. If you were only addressing the race issue and not statistics or contracts why ignore that in favor of quoting bigger stadium sizes? The fact is that the public would have accepted it. Dempsey wouldnt.

If America is/was a shithole its made so by people like Dempsey. The fact of the matter is that despite some people wanting to paint everyone in the USA as an intolerant racist in reality the vast majority of people then and now are not intolerant racists. The real issue is that the intolerant racists have always been louder and garnered more headlines and often times find themselves in positions where they can keep people like Wills at arms length. Ill take a guy like Greb who let the N word slip in public but still faced black men as equals over a guy like Dempsey who didnt believe in giving them their due.

 

So by that logic Dempsey could have defended his title outside of the USA for one of the numerous promoters that offered him a chance to fights Wills on foreign soil. He didnt.

Ye he could have but he didnt.More Facts like he didnt fight Greb.Again that took place in France not Alabama

If its unsolved how do you know it was racially motivated? Or do you care to solve it for us Inspector Clouseau?

What are the odds of it being racially motivated in 1920s America? I know he didnt have a dug...
Why not put it out there on this website that its racially motivated when Imperial Wizard Dempsey gets his fair share of racism bull**** thrown at him "So what if he had Black sparring partners" With Siki apparently being a bit of a lunatic himself I'll call it racially motivated with it also being inside the melting pot of Hells Kitchen

The middleweight championship was the second most prestigious title in the sport. And Madison Square Garden was operated at the time by Tex Rickard, you know, the guy who was supposedly scared of mixed race matches. If you were only addressing the race issue and not statistics or contracts why ignore that in favor of quoting bigger stadium sizes? The fact is that the public would have accepted it. Dempsey wouldnt


I was highlighting the pulling power of a Worlds Heavyweight title fight.The world has its attention.The President was perhaps the only person more widely or equally known as the Champion.Yes the boxing public would have loved it.

Loads of money & Loads of people with their own agendas like the media suddenly worm their way in.Back to Siki and the media of the time,Reading about him from newspapermen you could swear you were reading a kkk recruitment pamphlet or something.Its incredible

If America is/was a shithole its made so by people like Dempsey. The fact of the matter is that despite some people wanting to paint everyone in the USA as an intolerant racist in reality the vast majority of people then and now are not intolerant racists. The real issue is that the intolerant racists have always been louder and garnered more headlines and often times find themselves in positions where they can keep people like Wills at arms length. Ill take a guy like Greb who let the N word slip in public but still faced black men as equals over a guy like Dempsey who didnt believe in giving them their due.


Face it Yanks are obsessed with racism.They always have and it will always will be there.The media love it

Just reading this thread you can see it.Your last post! "If America is/was a shithole its made so by people like Dempsey." Unbelievable statement when you sit down to try and consider everything which you haven't done

When you go your headstone will have all this anti Jack Dempsey chat.