Note from Mike Tyson on most powerful puncher of all time

I was referring to his two TKO's against Frazier and Foreman.

 

I wouldn't say they lacked speed at all. They were a lot quicker than given credit for. They weren't exactly Ali quick per se, but they weren't the lumbering punchers everyone makes them out to be.

 

There's a gap between saying someone has mid level speed and saying they're straight up slow/lumbering.

Mariusz Wach and Abe Simon are two guys with atrocious speed and could be described as "lumbering". I would rate their foot speed as 2-3/10, handspeed 4/10 at best. Reflexes/reactions 2/10.

Liston's foot speed 4/10, handspeed 5/10. Reflexes/reactions 6/10.

Foreman's foot speed: 6/10, handspeed 4/10.
Reflexes/reactions 5/10.

What they lack in overall speed, they make up for it with underrated timing and accuracy. They both could be patient waiting until they see an opening or manage to corner their opponents. Foreman was good at cutting off the ring and could occasionally surprise people with his foot speed. Liston had decent reflexes to put up his guard/parry and seemed to be a tiny bit quicker than Foreman with his hands, but slower with his feet. Liston was always bothered by even halfway decent movers as seen with Machen/Ali or the time he cursed like a sailor sparring with Bugner.

 

This is all deeply impressive.
Again can I use you as an example if'n I start a thread about what can be achieved naturally?
People suspect folks who are not at your level, & way younger, absent good cause.
Heck just when I was doing skull crushers 10 X 135 lbs. in any NYC gym, a teen watching said to his friend "that's not natural". A few questions...

How much weight-in percentages-do you believe the Creatine added?
And what do you use for squats-knee wraps +a belt but no squat suit?
How much do you think they add in total?

Your BB bench is almost precisely the same weight & rep equivalency as your 160 lb. dumbbells X 8 reps: EXCEPT the DBs are more impressive.
Since anyone who really lifts should know that DBs are harder/you cannot do the same weights when adding them up.
Because you must use small stabilizing muscles-I was @15% stronger at regular benches.
Virtually nobody does the same on both calculating reps & weight---> thus since your DB achievements are even better, were you even stronger back then-at least for pushing exercises?

 

You are both a beast and a gentleman....a rare mix!

 

Sure, being used as an example would be very flattering!

135 for skullcrushers is an impressive weight for sure.

I'd have to knock nearly 4% off my lifts (so, let's say my max is 400, knock that down to around 385) without consistent use of creatine. It's not a huge boost, but it is a boost, one that enables me to use more weight for repetitions and thus inspire hypertrophy. Only side effect I get sometimes is some uncomfortable muscle cramping in my core. Back when I used five times as much the cramping could be VERY discomfiting...and to be forthright I doubt I got too much more strength and muscle size-wise from the overload. Maybe another percent or just over. The 5 grams are plenty, and keep in mind I weight just over 261 so a lighter person could get away with 4.

I actually did dumbbell bench presses alone for my chest for over two and a half years, completely eschewing the barbell because I just wasn't feeling the latter in my pectorals. So that had a lot to do with my strength in that exercise; you know how you dig that "path" in the neurons so they get trained to fire more in a certain movement.

I only, recently started doing the barbell again, and it's a nice change. I have to agree, my dumbbell poundages are significantly more impressive than my barbell...I even did one arm dumbbell rows 170 lbs for 13 reps (my max reps for barbell bent over rows are 335 lbs for 5).

And yes, the dumbbells do require more stabilizers, thus making a lot of the exercises seem more natural.

 

I value the opinions of ppl who actually fought Shavers to gauge his power. Especially guys that have fought both and I have yet to see someone say Foreman hit harder. Much respect to Tyson as a boxer but he didn't even fight Foreman.

 

For years I went to Mid City gym, claims to be the oldest continually active gym in the nation.
When the ig folks like Arnold came to NYC, they worked out there. Spoke with a modest Dennis Rodman there...
Anyway they had a talk by Mike Scott, 2 time Mr. Universe-maybe he had 2 shoulder surgeries too.
He basically said unless you wanted to reach these couple of conditions/achievements, do not do heavy bench presses at ALL.
Certainly if it hurts avoid it-no need, many other ways to stimulate muscle.
I once read the decline DBs activates more chest than any single exercise.

I would be surprised if Creatine did not add more than that, but its hard for even you to know since how can it be isolated from other things?
If you can make any gains above the great amount you have achieved naturally, especially at your/our age, that is remarkable.

 

Well Machen and Ali weren't "halfway decent movers". One was the number 1. contender after Liston himself, and had demolished every puncher he faced not named Williams, or Ingo before his commitment to the mental institution.

Liston was also rusty, and injured going into the Ali bout and gave him a much better fight than many want to admit. They were dead even on the cards, and Liston hurt Ali quite a few times outside of the 5th round (most notably in the 2nd) by Ali's own admission.

Liston and Bugner sparred less than 6 months before Liston's death while Liston was at minimum somewhere in his 40s and if one goes by the most recent data available nearly 50 years old which isn't farfetched at all.

The other was the GOAT.

 

They weren't the only movers he fought. Marty Marshall gave him problems. Liston said out his own mouth he didn't like having to pursue guys.

Nothing you wrote changes what I can see with my eyes. His feet were not that fast and his hand speed was slightly above average at best. He made up for it with his long reach, timing, and technique. He was no speed demon. I have argued for prime Liston being rated as highly as top 5 h2h so I think I'm being extremely fair.

 

I respect your opinion but I disagree.
All due respect Cobra, Marshall was VERY early in Liston's career. He broke his jaw and according to witnesses made Liston laugh first then caught him with his mouth open (Marshall was known for doing antics in the ring such as whooping and jumping and this is on full display against Harold Johnson).

It means absolutely nothing.

I don't think just any mover gives Liston problems. Ali was literally a once in a lifetime heavyweight. It's not like all you had to do was be a mover. Many tried and were mowed down.

The ones who made it the distance like Whitehurst and Machen won about 3 rounds between them and Whitehurst was saved by the fight ending in their rematch. Referee said if it was an earlier round even at the end of the round, he stops the fight. Whitehurst wouldn't have recovered in time.

 

Cognitive dissonance. You has it.

Tyson would've used Old Foreman as batting practice and gotten rid of him before rigor mortis set in.

 

Forum topic from a while back. Frank Bruno might've hit the hardest of any fighter who ever lived on God's green earth!!
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...-punched-at-over-1400-pounds-pressure.545761/

 

I think Liston's performance against Machen is a great testament to Sonny's ability to deal with a very good mover NOT named Muhammad Ali. And Machen didn't just move, he moved, held etc. to survive. And, just imo, even with Ali's insane movement in Miami, old, complacent, inactive and ill prepared Liston still got some very decent licks in on young Cassius Clay -and not just during the "blinding" round.

I always like the mental exercise of Liston and Foreman swapping opponents (Machen and Young). I see Liston doing equally as well against Young as he did against Machen if not even better. I can envisage the possibility of Liston actually catching up with Young for a KO/Stoppage. As to Foreman, at least the version of Foreman that did fight Young, he might just have as much trouble with the Machen of the Liston fight.

Marshall was very early in Liston's career and movers (as per the obvious intention behind their style) naturally give most fighters problems in varying degrees. It's simply what they do.

 

Fine post. You are on fire of late. Keep it going.