Note from Mike Tyson on most powerful puncher of all time

I can't fathom how Marshall can be brought up as evidence that Liston struggled again movers. Given Liston monstered him in their second fight and didn't lose a round to him in their third so it's actually hard evidence he did just fine against them if one wants to thrust Marshall forward. One could actually argue strongly that the green Liston from the first bout adapted brilliantly to basically completely own Marshall thereafter and that's not even taking in the intangibles from the first meeting.

Machen is the same. Liston beat him, a very highly ranked contender what, 10-2, 11-1 or 9-3 at the absolute worst? Not knocking him out means very little as history is littered with top flight heavyweight punchers not knocking out the odd guy here and there.

In essence we are left with Liston struggling with Ali, the GOAT and slipperiest heavyweight in history. Even then it wasn't a shutout and guys of the quality of Emanuel Steward are on record as saying that Liston from the earlier years would have went substantially better.

 

Yes but in fairness in his (should have been prime) he was only down against Douglas, & even Louis had the same thing happen to him.
Why do you think he has a better chance against Liston compared to Foreman?
Liston is generally considered more skilled-except at cutting off the ring, which would be unnecessary.
Don't you think he would have a siilar arsenal, including of uppercuts?

Your

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Where do you rate Liston's hand speed and foot speed on a scale of 1-10?

As for Liston against movers, I can only judge based on the guys he fought. It just so happens the best mover he fought, Ali, was when he was past his prime. It's kind of like how we have limited data for Bowe against punchers, we have to go off of what's available.

 

They are not remotely similar situations. Ali had been fighting pro for over 2 years by that point. He was green, but not nearly as much as Liston.

Liston on top of having his seventh pro fight, was being thrown to the wolves very early.

Also, I see zero evidence it was Marshall's movement that troubled Liston. That's certainly not mentioned in the reports of the fight. Only Liston having his jaw broken and fighting valiantly to an SD. Liston blasted out Marshall in their rematch and won every round in their rubber.

We know. 1930 is the youngest documented age for Liston making him at the youngest 34 and 35 respectively for the Ali bouts. Other arguably more reliable documentation have his birthyear at 1922, '23, '27, '28,

Pointing out his issues at the time of the aforementioned bouts isn't excuses. It's 100% true, and you haven't even tried to prove otherwise.

As a matter of fact. you've done quite the opposite in the past.

For the Ali bout:

For the Marshall bout:

Were you making excuses as well?

I never said you did. I'm saying people on this forum, make him out to be a lumbering snail which isn't true at all.

Machen approached Ingo VERY differently than he did Liston. Ingo was still a virtual unknown, so Machen had no respect for his power whatsoever. If he approached Liston that way, the result would've been similar.

Untrue. He made many adjustments in the bout with Machen, perhaps most notably shortening his punches, putting away the heavy artillery, and going to the body from the third round on.

You used Liston's lack of ring cutting against him. I gave two examples of guys who employed ring cutting tactics far more often then him, and doing far worse.

 

Yes, & I am surprised that you are surprised.
Swag just alluded to this, many others here have, & this is the conventional wisdom.
What is most popular is not always true. But in this & many cases there is good reason to believe that as a technician, Liston was better.

Just broadly, while Foreman had some subtle skills such as parrying, framing, illegal pushing, ring cutting...
Sonny was not just a slugger, a boxer/puncher behind a more consistent jab who paced himself better & had an excellent selection of punches-& he set men up very well.

 

Ali was green as grass. Banks was one of the first big step up opponent for Ali. He had more numerical fights than Liston but he was absolutely a rookie. I think you're intentionally trying to miss the point. If a fighter has the same issue across multiple fights that can't just be ignored.

This is a description of how Marshall frustrated Liston

This is part of the Detroit Free Press account of the Marshall-Liston fight of Sept. 8, 1954: "Marshall, who fights from an extremely unorthodox style which finds him as a right-hander one minute and a southpaw the next, confused Liston through most of the bout.

"As the fight wore on, Liston became more and more disturbed by his inability to catch up with the ever-moving Marshall and the Detroiter took the play from him through the final three rounds to clinch his triumph"

Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/vault.si.com/.amp/vault/1964/02/10/the-four-who-baffled-liston

So I acknowledge that switching between Orthodox and southpaw aren't conventional tactics of most movers, but the key takeaway is that the constant jittery movement bothered Liston. He uses slips, counters, and parries. If he evaded a punch he stepped to the outside. It should be noted Marshall took these fights with Liston on very short notice (less than a week in some cases).

They even compared him to Walcott

Marshall gave Liston plenty to puzzle over. He was never idle. He faked and moved and varied the sequence of his punches, much the way Jersey Joe Walcott did in 1947 when he almost took the title from Joe Louis. (Liston's stalking style is, in fact, reminiscent of Louis', and Marshall, with his skittering, crablike mannerisms, is not unlike Walcott.)

Again, focusing on the tree and missing the forest. His exact specific age isn't the main point, which is that he had trouble with movers and technicians at multiple points of his career.

You're raising excuses if on the multiple occasions where he has trouble with a certain style, there's an "explanation" instead of just saying perhaps he has trouble with that style? No one denied his jaw broke against Marshall or that he had an injury in the Ali fight. Is it Marshall's fault Liston was arrogantly laughing with his mouth open when he punched him?

Totally different conversation. Liston was being compared to a 137 year old Joe Louis.

Ok but we both agreed he has at least above average hand speed and maybe decent foot speed at best even in his prime. I didn't say you said I did, I'm saying there was no reason to bring it up to me if I never said he was lumbering.

Possibly, but Ingos style was the same since the amateurs and he drew infamy for annoying refs with it. Seems like Machen's team didn't do their research or underestimated him.

Obviously something wasn't working. I am not saying every power puncher is flawed if they do not knock out every single opponent, I'm just saying this is another example of Liston having some trouble with movement.

Machen is the only elite mover/technician Liston beat. Not sure how that proves he does way better against that type than Lyle and Foreman. Lyle beat Mathis and Ellis. Foreman beat Norton and he FORCED Ali to stop dancing and use the rope a dope because he cut the ring off so well. If Liston gets a pass for broken jaws, being old, having injuries, etc Foreman gets a pass for the Young loss where he suffered a heat stroke and had completely changed trainers.

 

One of the worst tweets I’ve ever seen on this site, and that’s saying something.

 

Sorry i thought it was obvious i was talking about pre-exile Ali, the one Liston actually faced. I'm sure he would have loved to have faced the Zaire version as opposed to the freak he actually did meet.

The Ali that Foreman faced was more than a decade older - a completely different creature.

 

Fantasy ratings of Liston's hand and foot speed don't change any of the points i made earlier. Also so much more comes into play, timing, patience, the ability to set traps, the ability to hammer the body etc etc etc. You are still holding up Marshall's first fight win as meaningful (via an article that has been laughed off the forum countless times as a hit piece) with quotes that Marshall did this and that but not accepting that in this case the two subsequent thrashings of Marshall blow putting any such weight on the first fight completely out of the water.

You're also still holding up Machen, whom you described as an elite mover/technician. Liston barely lost a round so that's a pretty good endorsement of Liston vs movers.

The best quick elusive technician Larry Holmes faced was Michael Spinks and it's all we have to go off from memory. Tho it's all we have to go off i'm not going to put much faith in it as Holmes was past prime.

Now personally i think peak Ali would beat Liston at his best, absolutely. I also think Ali was the worst guy in history Liston could have met as stated by Steward. I'd even go so far as to say excellent speedy boxers would probably be harder match ups Liston more than straight forward types.

I can't get on board with a lot you have said tho.

 

The Ali that fought Liston was elusive and difficult to hit clean

 

Thanks so much for the nice words, my friend! I'm sure you'll meet your own gym goals.

Liston was unquestionably a better boxer than George, and 8 times out of 10 I'd pick him (another reason is because Sonny would have absolutely no fear of Mike and would reverse the intimidation factor). But I think Mike could possibly hang in there with him for a decision. I imagine it would be like Tucker in only one way: Mike would get daunted early on by Sonny's jab and probably get cracked pretty good, then adopt a more cautious style, trying not to run in as much, landing a punch or two at a time, and doing just enough to convincingly win. If Mike does his usual charge, he's going to get hurt bad.

Sonny would have to be aware of the two ways (really just one way and a variation: charging, and then charging slowed way down lol) Mike fought to beat him, so if he doesn't knock him silly early on, to just stick with the ramrod jab against the relatively more meek Tyson and outbox him if necessary. Liston was more than capable of doing that.

It's more a question of styles with Foreman. Foreman was kind of Mike before there was Mike, except Mike didn't have that great technique of running people into his punches the way George did, and Mike wasn't as heavy handed (I realize this latter variable might work against the former in some ways).

Mike's head first style was perfect for that bullying technique, and he would be at the least staggering after a couple of those uppercuts...I just can't see him doing much besides getting floored if he comes right at George in the first couple of rounds and let's face it, Mike didn't do too good after getting dropped.