Why is Frazier an ATG?

Are we really going to act like he didn't clear the division and become unified champion before he beat Ali?

 

The comment “ aside from Ali “ isn’t the reality. That was one of the biggest heavyweight wins in history and a most classic fight. Joe Frazier was also an Olympic gold medalist. Early in the pros he Began beating contenders at a stage when most men are mere prospects fighting journeyman. He defeated the vast majority of the divisions best contenders and only lost to two of the best heavy’s ever.

 

I often don't understand things either. The doctor diagnosed me with something that explained it but I cannot remember what that is.

 

In only 37 fights he achieved what most never will.

 

Frazier had a good record back in the late 60s given he took down quality guys like Ellis. Regarding Ali, it’s not just that he was the first to beat Ali. He was the only guy who ever went toe-to-toe with Ali relentlessly and beat him up close in a match of pure vigor and brutality, almost never being slowed down by Ali’s constant jabs to the face. Ali couldn’t outsmart Frazier, couldn’t keep his distance and couldn’t put the man down. Ali himself admitted his first fight with Frazier was the closest he felt he ever came to death.

How can someone like Frazier not be an ATG? I think he is one of the lowest ranking ones granted, but he is still an ATG because there’s no way a non-ATG could accomplish something like that against a still pretty close to prime Ali.

 

If you say ''aside from Ali'', why not apply that same logic to other ATGs? Like would Foreman be as great ''aside from Michael Moorer''?

There is not much to add to what people have said but basically emerged as the top fighter in a strong era during Ali's absence, then proved he was the best fighter in the world when Ali came back. No losses to middling fighters which nearly every ATG has, got up every time he was dropped (could say getting up 6 times in one fight shows a better chin than getting dropped once to end the fight), perhaps the greatest inside fighter and left hook in the history of the HW division.

The unfortunate thing is that historically he has become so tied to Ali that people have forgotten what makes him truly stand out. And some people like to say ''but Ali beat him twice afterwards'' despite Joe having the most convincing win of their trilogy, and without knowing the details such as the excessive holding in the second fight or how Joe wanted to go out for the 15th but Ali may have wanted to quit, collapsing soon afterwards a sign that it may have been true.

 

Frazier's not grinding down any heavyweight with the names Larry Holmes or Jimmy Young

Jimmy was too slick, too quick for the one handed in fighter, and would most likely, box him silly

Think about it; Jimmy BEAT even more awesome, versatile heavyweight (foreman) who was still in his prime

He whipped Foreman and Lyle (twice) and stood up to Norton for 15 in a even bout.

Frazier has NO CHANCE

and Larry would knock Joe out with that big right hand.

Larry has the reach and the power to turn Joe's head into mush. Joe would be like a bull who sees red but doesnt want to move towards it

as for Mike Tyson, forget it. No matter the round, Mike will destroy him

 

Besides the excellent point presented here in Frazier's favor, Joe had incredible heart, he was floored about a dozen times in his career but he never stayed down.

The fact that two of the greatest champs and fighters ever in the history of boxing beat him is far from something to shame his legacy.

For a couple of years I had Joe below Mike Tyson on my list of ATGs due to to Mike's sensational, insane domination of the heavies from 87 to 90. However, once I asked myself if Mike had ever copped a win over someone as great as under-30, undefeated Ali, or only lost to guys in the top 5 or 6 ATG lists...no, far from it. Joe never lost to a third rater like Buster Douglas...the closest Mike ever came to fighting someone on the level of early 70s Ali was Holyfield and Lewis (both of whom were arguably more past it than 1971 Ali), and we see what happened there.

 

When you have a win over the GOAT, in the FOTC, you don't have to do a lot more.

 

Strewth? I like it. Stone the flamin’ crows Eagle - can I guess you to be either a Brit or an Aussie?

 

I am so hoping it is Alf Stewart.

 

What a great addition to the site he would be?

I’m sure members would have a lot of questions to ask but I’m not sure Alf could last more than one post before being banned.

I’m so tempted to link one of Doodleburger’s YT vids - but I don’t feel like being sent on a “holiday” myself at the moment.

 

Bwahahahahaha. Alf to mod - strewth what the flamin' hell are you running here?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!

 

You have some extreme opinions, & anytime you say "no chance" or dismiss things without reasoning them out-like Frazier likely to do much better than Tyson in a longer fight-it seems to betray wishful thinking, not objectivity.
Although I agree Tyson is pretty strongly the favorite there.

Foreman was only in his prime against Young in the sense Tyson was against Douglas-everyone recognizes George was somewhat damaged & gun shy after Ali, & his natural style was inhibited. With more aggression (intelligent, not like in Zaire) he could have won.

Why do you believe Foreman was more versatile than Frazier?
Both did not adjust much but were super-effective as sluggers & swarmers, respectively.

Also it is a hoary myth that Frazier was a one handed fighter.
Even if not usually what stopped guys, his right was quite active-he was a high volume fighter, without using it much he could not be.
Cooney you could call one handed, not Joe.
He also was versatile enough to use it more in certain fights even after FOTC, adjust his approach against Foreman...

Why do you not agree with the logic that a swarmer has a stylistic advantage against a slick boxer?
This is the opposite of slugger's Lyle & Foreman against Young.
Nobody was ever too fast for Joe to not catch up with & wear down.

Oh someone said that Ali made the "closest thing to death that I know" after FOTC, it was in the all time HW punch stat breaking, great heat of Manilla.

Holmes was great & you could make a case either way.
But Frazier would have the same stylistic advantage & should be favored.

Others mentioned most everything relevant.
His Gold Medal Olympic pedigree (someone mentioned this) & excellent amateur career must also be included.

 

Jimmy was too slick? The same Young that was 0-1-1 against Earnie Shavers? or the Young that was 0-2 against Ossie Ocasio when he was 30 and 31 years old? Foreman and Frazier fight nothing alike, Joe would make this a war of attrition and Jimmy folds, he's got nothing to keep Frazier off. Young's best wins were over Lyle in my opinion as Foreman was not mentally right since the Ali fight. A past it Ken Norton almost beat Holmes in a 15 round fight, a prime Frazier is a half a mile better than Norton. Who did Holmes beat that was in Fraziers class? Weaver? Snipes? a past it Norton? Cooney? You think Holmes is going to stop Frazier? Foreman couldn't keep Joe down and he kept coming, the greatest heavyweight of all time Ali unleashed a blistering attack against Frazier and couldn't keep Frazier off him and was beaten up and dropped, Holmes doesn't have the chin that Ali had either. Tyson is the fighter who's style would complicate Joe as I've thought he get Joe early.