Why is Frazier an ATG?

That's not evidence and I said nothing about ABC logic. Has nothing to do with style a, b, and c

I stress the importance of versatility

Joe doesnt have that versatility. He crowds the opponent and winds up with the left hook while Jimmy, a small heavyweight, can handle the big men with his high ring IQ combined with his footwork

and because of it, he had many ways to beat a variety of opponents

It's what made monzon the success he was while Frazier, was a one punch specialist

Jimmy simply stay out of range and what would Joe do if Jimmy kept circling to his left??? He'd be screwed again. It's a good thing he stayed away from Jimmy and Larry

 

LOL ! So many of us trying to convert Mark !

 

Should I believe you or Foreman who admitted Frazier hurt him a couple times

Classic quotes.

"Norton was ranked higher than Frazier in 1973.
Frazier gets no credit for his win over a "past prime" Ali, but Young gets all the credit in the world for losing to a shot Ali, and ducking through the ropes because he couldn't handle the pressure of a fat shot Ali.

 

Can I do a poll and credit it to you? Thank you in advance.

 

Sure, your view on it is just as valid as mine Swag and we agree on a lot of features to the fight anyway I think.

I’m not saying seriously hurt though - more stunned, as in def. feeling some shots that go his attention.

Also, I'm not suggesting that Jimmy, after having engaged The Acorn twice, somehow inherited his power and morphed into Earnie Shavers for this one fight -

I'll add that there are occasions also where Foreman is on the attack, but some of Young counters saw George cease his advance and stop throwing - even on other occasions again Foreman also looks to hold after a particularly effective Young salvo.

If they were absolutely nothing punches, I would think Foreman would’ve kept walking through and throwing. Of course, holding can be a mere stifling tactic without being necessarily shook up - I totally get that.

There's no bang on George's chin at all. I've always felt that Foreman has always had a great chin - though some have tried to suggest that a heavier George’s whiskers somehow became better in his second career - and they try to use the Young fight, among a few others, to uphold their case - a rationale I have disagreed with - and in the case of Puerto Rico - I’ve specifically referenced the heat and Foreman’s stamina issues as contributing to what went down (including George, lol) vs Young.

But in disagreeing with that I’m not going to say that George didn’t feel some of Young’s punches - Ali had a great chin also but Young somehow rocked Muhammad himself.

It was a perfect storm for Foreman in Puerto Rico - mentally impaired after the Ali defeat, his pre-fight dehydration, the ambient heat, Foreman not allowing himself to acclimatize prior to the fight and Young putting on one of his more aggressive punching displays.

I agree, Frazier hit Foreman hard, and George essentially took it like it was nothing. Even when Ali was hitting George particularly hard in Zaire - at least in the early rounds - Foreman’s ability to take a shot somewhat masked the true power behind Ali’s punches - the accumulative effect of those punches later catching up with Foreman as well as his own fatigue.

I’ve noted that when fights went longer and Foreman did become fatigued, his head rocked more from punches than it did in the earlier rounds. as if growing fatigue even robbed him of the resilience in his neck muscles - which will ultimately cause you to literally feel the punches more with greater brain swish.

Even Young’s jabs were increasingly snapping Foreman’s head back - and Young’s jab wasn’t on par with Ali’s jabs in Zaire.

At the very least, Young’s punching display, in its own right vs Foreman, did belie his rep. as a powder puff puncher, just imo. Now if that was the ONLY time when Young appeared to enjoy greater effect from his punches - then there's a strong case to put that effect down to the context surrounding Foreman and the overall fight itself. But as I said, I think Young contradicted his general powder puff power rating in his fights vs Lyle, Norton and Ali also.

I will identify and isolate the occasions when Young’s punches missed but part of his arm still caught Foreman behind the head or somewhere on the body, causing George to become off balance - and yes, there were more than a few of those occasions when that occurred - NOT to be misidentified as Foreman being hurt - rather, if anything, those occasions might’ve strongly reflected George’s growing fatigue, weakened legs and the already precarious nature of his balance.
Here’s the shortest HL version of the fight I could find - the lead up to the KD starts at 4:30.

For what it’s worth and bearing in mind Foreman’s impaired mental and physical state in the dressing room shortly after - note that in real time, while Foreman did jump up to continue immediately, George doesn’t contest the KD ruling - and I haven’t personally read/heard that he ever did contest it since that fight - though he still continued to gripe about features of his match with Ali in Zaire.

Just one last thing, purely for the sake of more detailed analysis, note Young's "jab" just prior to hitting Foreman with the right hand - he actually hit George with the inside/heel of his open glove - illegal and I've noted Jimmy having been guilty of same in a number of other instances.

The KD is at around 4:30

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Smok'n' Joe smacking George in their rematch. Ouch!

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You can’t let me win once can you ****er? Keep this up, you’re losing you’re losing your spot As top two poster on the forum.

 

This can’t be real. According to Mark, Frazier never hurt Foreman at all.

 

Swag - but it's not about winning, it's all about how you play the game. How do you know you didn't win anyway?

****er? Did you just call me Father or Boomer? Just as well the expletive filter is working properly.

Settle down there, young man. I'm only old enough to be your somewhat older but incredibly young-looking brother.

How's this? You won, I just typed more. It's called the attrition method.

And to placate you further - here's a pic of someone you might like - how would Jimmy Young have fared against this halfway decent puncher?

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Now @JohnThomas1 might weigh in to well and truly be tip me off our shared perch - upon which I now appear to be precariously balanced. Et tu, JT?

 

You can do wonders with photo shop these days - impossible to tell what's real and what isn't. This is actually Foreman after being hit by one of Jimmy Young's howitzer left hooks - I've substituted Joe's image in for that of Jimmy's.

 

I'll let almost anyone win one for that prestige!

 

All good mate your post and your good self wasn't remotely on my mind per the comments.

My memory without looking again is Foreman was totally exhausted and falling over his own feet. From memory it was a cuff that dragged him down as he was falling all over the place.

 

Frazier's work rate, his relentless onslaught would take its toll on Young.With little to fear from Young as regards power shots,Joe would have his head on Young's chest, attacking his body without let up.
Young put his upper body through the ropes to evade the attack of a past prime Ali,he would be looking to jump out of the ring after a few rounds of Frazier's hooks to the ribs.
I don't believe Young could take that kind of incessant pressure.
If Young had so many options to beat opponents how come he lost to so many of them?
18 out of 57.
What were these "ways?".
Young boxed and countered he wasn't a slugger, he wasn't a swarmer, he was a defensive boxer.
In which fights can we see him employing all these different ways?
If all you needed to beat Frazier was to circle to your left, how come only 2 men managed to beat him?
Young would stay out of range?
How would he win the fight doing that?
Apart from Ali, who was twice the fighter Young was ,and Foreman, who simply waited for Frazier to come in so he could detonate his enormous power on him, who managed to stay out of range of Frazier?
Let me be clear, Frazier does not make my top ten ATG heavies,but Young does not make my top 35 Young was a very good fighter.Frazier ,on some nights reached greatness,because he was prepared to pay the price for that,imo Young never was.

 

I would do a poll- who has the better resume-Frazier or Young, but posters would think I'm a troll or lost my mind.