Is there anyone who could school 67 Ali?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by AngryBirds, Mar 18, 2023.

  1. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2022
    Messages:
    6,658
    Likes Received:
    9,097
    By 1967 he beat everyone in front of him including three members of the International Boxing Hall Of Fame.
     
    Dubblechin likes this.
  2. Dubblechin

    Dubblechin Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    25,230
    Likes Received:
    19,370
    The 1967 Muhammad Ali who left Cleveland Williams as a skid mark on the canvas beats most any heavyweight.

    He had movement, speed, power. And he was just approaching his peak - at age 25.

    I guess it depends on what your defnition of "school" is. But how would someone "school" that guy at the end of that year?

    IMO, Bowe and Lewis couldn't "school" Holyfield. Holyfield couldn't "school" Michael Dokes or a 42-year-old Larry Holmes. Usyk couldn't even "school" Chisora.

    Joyce? I love Joe Joyce. But Joe Joyce couldn't "school" Carlos Takam.

    No. NOBODY "schools" 1967 Ali.

    Could some all-timer edge him? Sure. Why not. "School?" No.
     
  3. northpaw

    northpaw Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    17,511
    Likes Received:
    11,218
    This is true, pure boxers of every era always have problems with that style.
     
  4. KasimirKid

    KasimirKid Well-Known Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    2,349
    Likes Received:
    3,548
    Catch him if you can!?
     
  5. Melankomas

    Melankomas Corbett beats your favourite fighter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2022
    Messages:
    8,264
    Likes Received:
    10,015
    No, some may beat him but nobody would ever school him.
     
    RockyJim likes this.
  6. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    65,838
    Likes Received:
    52,995
    The question might be asked. who actually tried to beat him at that time? The list is not all that long or all that impressive. Casuals put far too much importance on Ali beating up a shell of Williams, who was already the perfect foil for a young Ali's style.
     
  7. Melankomas

    Melankomas Corbett beats your favourite fighter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2022
    Messages:
    8,264
    Likes Received:
    10,015
    Also true. Ali might've looked as perfect as any boxer in history when he beat Cleveland Williams but he also beat the worst version of Williams as well.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  8. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2022
    Messages:
    4,263
    Likes Received:
    3,247
    1966 Ali vs 2018 Usyk

    Ali: 24 years old, started boxing age 12, 88 confirmed amateur bouts with a record of 80-8 (3 rounders, 247 rounds max), 25 pro (144 rounds contested), stopped 9 pro opponents who were 197+ lbs

    Usyk: 31 years old, started boxing age 15, 350 amateur bouts with a record of 335-15 (3-4 rounders, 1076-1332 rounds max), 6 WSB (25 rounds contested), 14 pro (105 rounds contested), stopped 11 WSB/pro opponents who were 197+ lbs (pre-rehydration)

    Ali had been knocked down from head shots twice in the previous 15 fights/4.5 years (Sonny Banks, Henry Cooper), was almost exclusively a head hunter, hadn’t fought a southpaw in 6 years, had lost to at least two southpaws in the amateurs (Kent Green by KO, Amos Johnson by SD), 2013 Usyk was heavier than 28/33 of Ali’s pre-Mathis opponents (Ali himself was very big for his era) and as much as 9 lbs heavier than 1966 Ali, who had gone the distance with 5 of his 25 pro opponents (17-9-1 186 lbs Hunsaker, 15-11-1 225 lbs Sabedong, 18-7 189 lbs Johnson, 23-3-1 188 lbs Jones, 34-11-2 216 lbs Chuvalo), whereas Usyk (the best southpaw heavyweight ever) hasn’t been stopped or dropped with a headshot in a combined total of 376 fights, amateur and pro.

    1966 Ali had a highly competitive fight with 49-2-3 European champion southpaw Mildenberger over 11.5 rounds (Ali admitted that he found Mildenberger’s stance and boxing ability very difficult to deal with), who was billed as being 6’1.5 with a 73 inch reach and 195 lbs (4-3-1 in non-KD rounds according to two of the three judges, 154-144 punches landed out of 612-538 thrown according to Compubox; by contrast Usyk outlanded the 6’2, 79.5 inch reach, 198 lbs, undefeated Olympian Hunter 321-190, throwing 905-794 over 12 rounds). Mildenberger had been KO’d twice (once in the 1st round by 30-12-2, 201 lbs Dick Richardson, who had 2 stoppage wins in his previous 9 fights and 0 in his only 2 fights after) and dropped numerous times in 54 pro fights, registered a 31% KO ratio with 0 KO’s in his previous 5 fights and had a 52-12 amateur record, with winning the German LHW championship being his best amateur accomplishment.

    Usyk has studied Ali extensively, sparred and beaten many opponents influenced by him and has modern advantages in terms of training and "nutrition", as well as a tougher upbringing being from a working-class family in post-Soviet Ukraine, with a modern Eastern European style that Ali never experienced (the old Soviet school was limited to the amateurs in those days).

    Ali’s objective chance = sub-5%.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2023
    White Bomber and Seamus like this.
  9. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2022
    Messages:
    6,658
    Likes Received:
    9,097
    Just when I thought this board could use a little levity.
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Messages:
    71,978
    Likes Received:
    27,966
    It is just about plausible, that there was some cutie in another era, who simply had his number.

    Of course we have no idea whether such a man existed, or who he was if he did exist.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023
    Seamus likes this.
  11. Spreadeagle

    Spreadeagle Active Member Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2023
    Messages:
    1,314
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Whoa.....if we're talking about the Muhammad Ali of 1967 only Lennox Lewis and Larry Holmes
    would have a slender chance of beating the GOAT.
    The other guys you mentioned ? No way !
     
  12. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2005
    Messages:
    65,838
    Likes Received:
    52,995
    Or that a man like John L was quicker to the mark and would pulverize him.
     
  13. Fergy

    Fergy Walking Dead Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2017
    Messages:
    32,094
    Likes Received:
    40,058
    Nope don't see anyone schooling him.
     
    swagdelfadeel likes this.
  14. JackSilver

    JackSilver Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    5,815
    Likes Received:
    5,511
    So famous they didn’t have names?
     
  15. ThatOne

    ThatOne Boxing Addict Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2022
    Messages:
    6,658
    Likes Received:
    9,097
    So famous they were give sobriquets. The Old Mongoose, The Gentleman Of Boxing, and Big Bear.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2023