Is there anyone who could school 67 Ali?

"regardless of how good the point is"

The best you did was add a degree of ambiguity by mentioning (correctly) that there is more to stamina than throwing punches, and that absorbing punches saps stamina. But Usyk also uses a lot of movement and feints, as well as throwing far more punches over 12 rounds than Ali or Frazier and even far more over 12 than they did over 15. And while getting hit a lot and taking it does show toughness (which Usyk has in spades: he's not known to have been dropped by a headshot in 376 fights) it also shows suspect defence. The broader point that today's heavyweights are bigger than ever but also throw more punches than ever can't just be glossed over with a lame attempt at muddying the waters.

"The 'stat guys' will usually bring in irrelevant facts (amateur records, how great their guy is cause he fights in his opponents' backyards, their guy is a southpaw and stats and percentages clearly show that southpaws beat orthodox fighters"

Amateur pedigree, ability to win on the road and southpaw stance are all important things to consider. You don't like to consider southpaw for example because pre-2000's heavies and especially pre-90's heavies barely fought any (if any at all) and often struggled against non-world level southpaws. So it's a massive (though in many cases unavoidable) hole in the records of past fighters. Another is that they didn't beat any 6'5+, athletic, one-punch KO artists but that type didn't exist back then, so they can't be blamed for that. Still, there's no real evidence they could reliably win against such fighters.

 

Many would argue that Lewis schooled Holyfield in fight 1, winning 10 rounds in his backyard. Maybe would argue that Fury schooled Wlad, also winning 10 rounds in his backyard. Many would argue that Young schooled Foreman. Many would argue that Douglas schooled Tyson.

Seeing as all those greats got schooled (regardless of excuses about them having a "bad night"), I don't see why a young Ali couldn't get schooled (especially on a "bad night"), particularly if he fought the GOAT HW southpaw or a 6'5+ athletic one-punch KO artist; types which didn't exist in his time (50-60 years ago) and wouldn't exist for a long time yet.

 

Ali is massively overrated, his fanboys just can't deal with it.

 

How is a boxer who beat six members of the International Boxing Hall Of Fame, four Olympic Gold Medalists, two top ten heavyweight all time greats, and a bubble top ten all time great be overrated?

 

Lewis schooled an older, past his prime version of Hoylfield. Ironically, an even older version made the fight even closer in the rematch and some argue that Hoylfield won that rematch. That certainly isn't a very good example given that an old Holyfield isn't comparable to a prime Hoylfield, let alone a prime Ali.

Same thing with Fury beating Wladmir really. Wladmir was old as hell and gunshy.

Pointing out a fighter was old and past their best aren't excuses, they are facts. It's as clear as the difference between night and day the difference between prime Holyfield/Wladmir and the versions who lost to Lewis and Fury.

Can you give me some actual examples instead of some hypothetical made up boxer from the future? Who do you think definitely "schools" a prime Ali?

 

Do you think Ali is "massively overrated" by his fanboys?

 

There's a handful, you're always going to get some who massively overrate their favorite fighters. From what I've seen, most will admit fights with guys like Holmes, Lewis, etc would be difficult challenges or that he may lose. I almost never see anyone claiming he easily beats every ATG.

 

Very simple. It looks like you don't understand the meaning of the word "overrated". It doesn't mean someone is not good/great, it means they are not as good/great as they are being advertised, that's all.
Ali was good, but nowhere near as good as his reputation suggests. With the passage of time, he has become much more myth than man. His legend is far greater than the reality of his career. He was getting rocked by 185 lb fighters like Henry Cooper in his supposed prime. All the big heavyweights he beat were mostly flat-footed sluggers with no head movement.

 

Ali was knocked down by Henry Cooper when he was twenty one years old. Was that his "prime", real or supposed? Thank you in advance. Somebody mentioned hand speed and said Tyson and Patterson were just as fast. Jim Jacobs who was Tyson's mentor, manager, and friend had the largest collection of boxing film in the history of the sport. He said the film indicated that not only was Ali the fastest heavyweight on film, he was the fastest boxer on film. I'll supply a citation, i.e. link if anybody wants.

 

I respect everyone's view points and there have been some interesting comments but for someone of my generation to hear Ali called overrated is pretty mind blowing. I can certainly understand people suggesting 67 Ali was beatable but a 3 x undisputed lineal HW champ and Olympic gold medalist overrated? I mean I don't think he is the second coming of Jesus, I just see him as one of the very best of all time with a unique style who influenced and was the favourite fighter of many ATGs and historians. Not sure if that means I am overrating him? Jeez even Marlon Starling and Tim Witherspoon on this very forum said he was their favourite fighter. I suspect if you told them Ali was overrated they would bop you in the nose.

We are getting to the point were everyone is now overrated, in the same way all news is fake and everything is a conspiracy theory. It has actually made me go back to rewatch many "overrated" greats to see if I had got everything wrong and I end up going "oh yes actually they were amazing".

It is possibly a result of our seeming perpetual lack of satisfaction with everything and our inability to believe in anything anymore. We should be grateful we got to enjoy watching some of the greatest athletes who ever lived. If you can't sit back and enjoy Ali at his best my mind boggles.

 

It's a shame Tim was around the ghost of Ali. Oh, irony of ironies, Ali is Oleksandr Usyk's favorite boxer too.

 

I don't like to watch the FOTC because Ali lost but the pop and snap on his jab in that fight is unbelievable. It was like a piston.

 

Precisely.

 

I will put it this way.

If he ever met a man with faster hands, who he did not have significant physical advantages over, then he would almost certainly be in trouble.

That would take away the advantage that he relied upon the most.

I have no reason to think that such a man has ever existed, but that is not to say that they never did, or never could in the future.

 

I don't remember 67 Ali laying ever laying on the ropes.