Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

All good. We all make mistakes man. I know I've had more than my fair share.

 

Your unwarranted aggression, theory that Ingo would be higher rated if he was American, using Williams and Liston's early and late career losses, while coming up with countless excuses to write off Ingo's performance against London (when he was at his peak, and dropped and hurt so bad that the referee stated if it wasn't the end of the bout he'd have stopped the fight), playing devil's advocate for Ingo, trying your damnest to make him a favorite over Liston give you away.

Now please stop your pathetic attempts at gaslighting and answer my question. What were Cooper's and Eskriene ratings when Ingo beat them?

 

Liston doesn’t just knock Ingo senseless inside 5, he boxes his ears off doing it. That’s the thing about peak Liston … not 1964 Miami Liston … from looking at old videos, at least to my eyes he was a fairly skilled technical boxer, not just a slugger. Ingo IMO was not.

 

Excellent post.

 

Liston probably first round knockout. Second at most. Ingo may just land a big right to get Liston’s attention for a moment but that’s about it.

 

Ali was another level so far as movement was concerned against Johansson. But Ingos movement itself was difficult for a stalking type fighters like Liston. It is a different type of movement, less active, but none the less effective at forcing the opposition to constantly reset and reposition. It was really about repositioning the opponent on the blindside of the bingo. Subtle, fidgety shifts and step off jabs rather than the outright dancing of Ali.

 

I think it is a vast overstatement to put either DeJohn or Williams in the same echelon as any world champion.

I don’t doubt that their individual best punches were exceptional up to a level. But champions with noted power are proven at championship level. They made the grade because, unlike Dejohn and Williams, they are proven at knocking out better guys.

 

Good observations about the movement related to Ali & Ingo.
However I think Spreaeagle is correct.
His argument was not how effective their punches were, or how good overall.
There are various men who are on the echelon of power of better & sometimes much greater fighters.
Liston himself said WIlliams hit as hard as him, but could not take it as well.
Possiby it was an oversight that Big George did not cite Liston as among the hardest punchers, but had Lyle, Cooney, & "a kid named Cleveland WIlliams".

You may be able to name the 2 men Louis fought, & 3 Tyson fought 5X total, that in all likelihood hit harder then either for single shots.
Totally distinct from how good they were in torem *or* at securing KOs against top opposition.

 

It's very significant that even a post-shooting Williams, landed on the top three hardest punchers Foreman stepped in the ring with. That speaks volumes, as to his power at his peak, and by extension Liston's chin.

 

You tryin' to make my error of using the wrong name-not Liston-seem routine 'cause now you meant Foreman but said Williams?
And in this case you have Williams essentially fightin' himself!
But I agree that only Liston likely hit as hard as any boxer Cleveland fought with.
Well that &...Williams.

 

Like I said we all make mistakes pal.

I know a number of boxers actually thought Williams hit harder than Liston.

It seems to me, it may very well have been a case ala Tyson-Ruddock, where one guy may be the harder puncher in terms of brute force, but the other guy is the better puncher, and that's the deciding factor.

 

Yes this is a point worth reminding people more often. You correctly remind us that in punching harder it did not make them anymore likely to beat good fighters because of it.

James Bonecrusher Smith, for one shot, had to be a harder puncher than most, yet Marvis Frazier and others all beat him out of sight. It’s the same for Cleveland Williams and Mike DeJohn isn’t it?

 

It’s a “so what” point really isn’t it?

 

Who thought Williams hit harder than Liston?
Certainly possible.

 

Swag?