Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

Nah he just wasn't as much as you'd like it to be. It's rubbish. He'd already showed in 55 and 56 he had come on in leaps and bounds.
You don't suddenly forget how to fight in just under 2 years. By the end of 58 Liston was the best in the world and just needed the top dawgs to show up to prove it.

Great.

 

He was never much good at championship level anyway.

 

Which filmed fights are you basing this upon?

you have the filmed evidence of Sonny coming on in leaps and bounds fight to fight comparative to Mike Tyson’s early career?

 

You don't need it. Do you rate Harry Greb? It's evident he came along in leaps and bounds by his trilogy with Marshall. Do the research. Do you think a talent like Liston wasn't coming on in leaps and bounds? It's obvious he was improving pre ban and it's obvious he was coming on like a freight train as soon as he came back.

Ingemar beat two top 10 fighters in his life.

 

I would heavily favour the Liston that beat Williams & Valdes, both by 3-round KO, in 1959, over any version of Johansson.

 

Absolutely. also looking at how Floyd went against Liston (and Ingemar when they actually fought as well) i'd even be taking 58 Liston against him and wouldn't even be discounting 56 Liston's chances. It's just one of those matchups.

 

LOL!

 

So he had forgotten all he had previously learned ? lol

 

Sonny Liston 213 lbs beat Bert Whitehurst 190 lbs by UD in round 10 of 10

• Date: 1958-10-24
• Location: Arena, Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
• Referee: Harry Kessler 50-37
• Judge: Fred Connell 48-39
• Judge: Howard Hess 50-40

Notes

• Promoted by the International Boxing Club.
• Held under the auspices of the National Boxing Association.
• Scored under the five-point must system.
• The mandatory eight-count rule was in effect.
• John Curley was the ring announcer.
• World Welterweight Champion Virgil Akins was introduced in the ring prior to the bout.
• Whitehurst was knocked through the ropes in the final seconds of the fight. The Associated Press reported: "In a wild flurry of lefts and rights, Liston sent Whitehurst reeling through the ropes. Whitehurst lay on the apron as referee Harry Kessler began his count. He was trying to get back in the ring when the final gong sounded at the count of eight."

Pretty conclusive!

 

not so. all told ingo beat 8 men who made ratings.

in the year each won the title:

1962 liston had wins over Patterson,folley williams from current anual ratings. he beat 2 of the top 5 and 3 of top 10 as it then stood.

1959 ingo had beaten patterson, cooper, machen and erskine who were all rated at that time. he had wins over 3 of top 5 and 4 of the then current top 10.

it’s all very comparable to Liston actually. Still I favour the 1960 Liston over Ingo.

 

yes, John Curley was the ring announcer and World Welterweight Champion Virgil Akins was introduced in the ring prior to the bout. You got me Bang to rights on that front. You got that right. As you say. Conclusive.

 

Just to be straight you are claiming they were Ring rated when he beat them?

What do you mean by "current annual ratings"????? Annual ratings aren't current, monthly ones are?

OK "rated at that time".

3 of the top 5 and 4 of the current top 10? So that's seven names? WTH?

Please explain how in the god's name Cooper, 14-4 and coming off two stoppage losses in a row to non elites was "rated at that time"???????

I'm also dubious about Erskine being rated particularly given your history with this sort of stuff and the claim above that Cooper was rated.

@SolomonDeedes - if you get bored in coming days are you able to check if Erskine was ranked Feb 58 when Ingo beat him? I don't think you need to even look up Cooper given he was coming off two losses.

It's not, not even remotely. I'm incredibly dubious about your claims and at any rate Liston flogged the bejesus out of Patterson 2 out of 2 and left plenty of contenders in his wake (for actual real).

 

Agreed. It's diffiult to imagine that Liston improved to such a great extent between 58 & 59.

 

I said by the time Ingo was champion. Here Cooper is listed in the ratings BEFORE ingo challenges for the title.

December 1958 NBA ratings


Heavyweight
Floyd Patterson, Champion

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Brian London
3. Nino Valdes
4. Zora Folley
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Eddie Machen *
7. Henry Cooper *
8. Roy Harris
9. Mike DeJohn
10. Sonny Liston

we’ll take a look at this then. Just like I said, When Ingo was champion he had beaten four of his top ten :

August 1959 NBA

Ingemar Johansson, Champion

1. Floyd Patterson *
2. Zora Folley
3. Sonny Liston
4. Eddie Machen. *
5. Henry Cooper *
6. Roy Harris
7. Alex Miteff
8. Alonzo Johnson
9. Charley Powell
10. Joe Erskine
11. 
    By comparison, look at the NBA ratings from December 1962
12. Sonny Liston, Champion
13. 1. Floyd Patterson*
    2. Ingemar Johansson
    3. Muhammad Ali
    4. Cleveland Williams*
    5. Doug Jones
    6. Henry Cooper
    7. Billy Daniels
    8. Roger Rischer
    9. Zora Folley*
    10. Franco De Piccoli

 

As you say - Erskine and Cooper were both unranked when they lost to Johansson. Chok has tried to work this dodge before and it doesn't make any more sense now than it did then. What counts, obviously, is a man's rating when you beat him, not his rating when you beat a completely different opponent years later. Beating an unranked Joe Erskine was no more meaningful than Liston's wins against Johnny Summerlin back in 1954. The only difference is that by the time Liston finally got a title shot 8 years later Summerlin had entered the top 10, dropped back out of the top 10, and eventually retired.

Actually, even by Chok's own made up rules, Liston is a clear winner. On becoming champion, Liston had wins over all the top three (Patterson, Machen, Folley) plus two other contenders - #6 Cleveland Williams and #10 Mike DeJohn. Johansson had wins over just four of the top 10 - #1 Patterson, #3 Cooper, #5 Machen and #7 Erskine.