Ingemar Johansson vs Sonny Liston 1959

“just” four of the top ten? That’s quite a bit isn’t it?

Four of the top ten is exactly what I said all along.

Not that it mattered because both Sonny and Ingo were tied to rematching clauses anyway, but to demonstrate, johansson was far from having “only beat two rated opponents”, & wasn’t some fluke champ since once Ingo was champion, he already held wins over a respectable number of the top ten.

 

What you "said all along" was that Johansson's tally was better than Liston's. As I've explained, Liston had wins against 5 of the top 10 when he first became champion, not 3 as you claimed.

Not that it matters, because - once again - what's important is a fighter's rating when you beat him, not his rating when you beat someone else years later.

 

Liston had beaten the following Ring ranked contenders going into his title shot with Patterson.
Bethea
Valdes
Summerlin
DeJohn
Harris
Machen
Folley

 

some months it was and some months it wasn’t. I produced one top ten from the NBA where Sonny had less and Ingo had more. Overall quite comparable since as champions both held wins over a respectable number of the top ten.

well it matters because it has been quite overlooked that Ingo held wins over four of the ten.

 

Yet he mysteriously stumbled his way into a number 2 rating, and the finals of a WBA championship match (who's ratings you've put so much credit in) when he was shot.

 

Now we know why Bah Lane avoided this question when I asked him multiple times.

 

Ingo had 2 wins over Ring ranked opponents when he faced Patterson.
Erskine
Machen

 

he had. That’s seven dudes.

But is there a top ten list out there including all of these names at the same time?

I know that Harris, Machen and Folley were and I can see for myself that Williams and DeJohn were included in some lists. Making it a maximum of five from the top ten. Whereas Ingo has a respectable 4 of 10.

But if you can find a top ten where Sonny has beaten seven of the top ten I would be happy to see it.

 

Cooper and Machen were actually (and rightly) listed when ingo faced Patterson. Once he beat Patterson, Erskine joined the top ten as well meaning Ingo held wins over four of the top ten. Very respectable stat.

Previously ingo broke into the top ten beating Franco cavichi and had sat in the top ten since 1956.

 

Like I say, not much good at championship level.

 

In other words you trawled through the NBA monthly ratings in search of a pair of listings which would serve your agenda.

For Johansson, you picked August 1959 - his 3rd month as champion. For Liston, December 1962, his 4th as champion. Why the inconsistency?

Because, of course, it was in December that #1 contender Eddie Machen was dropped from the ratings following his breakdown. You needed him gone to make Liston's stats look weaker.

It just shows how much better Liston's record is that you have to tie yourself up in knots like this trying to find a way to squint at the numbers so that they look like they favour Johansson.

And just to reiterate for anyone who's missed it: in his entire career Johansson has two wins against actual, currently rated contenders, and no amount of numbers-juggling will change that.

 

Cooper was not Ring ranked when he fought Ingo ,he had been stopped in his previous 2 fights. Erskine was no 10.

I avoid extended debate with you because it is futile .

 

Bang to rights! lol

 

It’s not about favouring Sonny, It’s about showing that Ingos stats (4 of 10) are vastly overlooked because, as I demonstrated, this happened only on certain months.

does this include cavicchi? Franco was rated too.

 

So let me get this straight, Erskine wasn’t in the top ten when he fought Ingo but since he made the top ten later, you allow the inclusion? Are we giving Williams credit his wins over Terrell, Richardson, Holman, Johnson and Bethea under this premise or does that not suit your agenda?