All-Time Welterweight Tournament

I rank Ross above Hearns p4p. Ross was never more than a LW, a LWW at most. Ross vs Hearns at WW? C'mon. I love Barney Ross, but let's not be silly. Ross is the greater p4p fighter, Hearns the better win at WW. That is obvious imo.

Benny Leonard was a great LW, not a great WW, who went 1-1 with Jack Britton. The Britton win was a DQ after Leonard hit Britton on the floor following a DQ. I rank B. Leonard above Duran at LW, but at WW, Duran is clearly far higher.

 

If you seeded the top 16 or 32 welterweights of all time and fought tournament style — 1 seed vs. 16 (or 32), 2 vs. 15 (or 31), etc., I think in the end you have two of Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns depending on the draw.

And I think any of the three could win the final against either of the others. I’d favor Robinson and Leonard over Hearns (of course SRL did fight and beat him at 147) but you can’t count out Hearns in a one-fight scenario. Nobody ever outboxed him at any weight and he had heavy artillery in both hands.

 

Certainly not the Duran that Leonard fought. Also, I don't think we should be too quick to discredit Britton's win over Leonard. Leonard was in the prime of his career, and we can't dismiss him as a WW just because he lost to Jack Britton.

 

I don't dismiss Leonard as a WW, he just doesn't rank as highly at WW as Duran. In Britton's 3 x fights with Benny Leonard, he lost 2 and won a fight by DQ after Leonard hit him whilst he was on the floor, having being knocked down.

 

Prime Benny Leonard > Drained Roberto Duran. I think Leonard beating Britton those first 2 times proves that he can hang with welterweights, and their third fight wasn't Britton getting KO'd. He dominated the fight up until that foul, and he was 37! Much more impressive than making a weak version of Duran quit.

 

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on how their respective fights vs Benny Leonard & Roberto Duran, impact on the WW standing of SRL & Jack Britton. To my mind:

• SRL avenged a close fight vs Duran inside the distance. Some people attribute SRL's win in the rematch to Duran's condition, others to his change in SRL's tactics. What matters is he won. There are rumours that Tyson, shall we say, wasn't well rested the night before fighting Douglas. Douglas's performance is still rightly held in high regard.
  
• Britton went 1-2, with the win being a DQ (though you're right he was winning the fight, which is impressive at his age), vs B. Leonard.
  
• Duran was bigger than B. Leonard & at 145.5 & 146lbs had filled out into a geniuine WW vs SRL. B. Leonard was a small LW, he weighed 133, 138 & 139lbs vs Britton. Britton was well inside 147lbs too, but that only impacts on his standing p4p, not at WW. Duran & B.Leonard are both great fighters (my #7 & #8 respectively p4p, of all time), but on the nights SRL & Britton fought them, SRL was fighting a great WW & Britton was fighting a great LW.
• Claiming Britton is a greater WW than SRL because he beat B. Leonard, who must be a great WW because he also beat Britton, is circular reasoning.

I don't want to denigrate Jack Britton. He's my #5 WW of all time, which means I think his record is extremely impressive. As I've said, ranking Britton ahead of SRL at WW is a reasonable & defensible position. It's probably a minority position, though:

• A combination of 24 of our fellow Classic Forum voters have SRL #2 with more than 3 x times the amount of points their combined #8 Jack Britton -
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• McGrain has them much closer, with SRL #2 & Jack Britton #3 - https://tss.ib.tv/boxing/featured-b...test-welterweights-of-all-time-part-five-10-1

Again, if depth of win resume is your sole or major criteria, particularly if you give equal credit for each of multiple wins over the same great fighter (in this case, TK Lewis), I can see Britton reasonably ranked ahead of SRL at WW. Equally, I'm comfortable with my ordering.

What is your top 10 or 20 at WW?

 

I'll admit, I'm not the most educated on the welterweight division to the point where I can make a complete top 20. And I meant that Benny Leonard was a formidable welterweight, as proven by his performances against Britton and Lewis in the division. Drawing and defeating the two greatest welters of your time is impressive no matter what, and proves that you're a legitimate contender in that division.

I think Douglas' win over Tyson is also somewhat hurt by the fact that it clearly wasn't a peak Tyson, and that's what Leonard's situation is with his victory over Duran. I just can't consider it a great win, same thing with Douglas over Tyson. If he beat Duran at his peak (I thought Leonard arguably won the first fight) then I'd put him above Britton.

 

Fair enough.

I agree B. Leonard was a formidable foe, even at WW, where I also agree with your description of him as a legitimate contender.

The Duran SRL fought was a fully fledged WW, whereas B.Leonard was never anything more than a LW. Leonard ranks higher than Duran at LW, imo, but Duran clearly ranks higher at WW, if fights contest at those weights are the determining criteria.

SRL's win over Hearns is better than a win over any version of Duran would have ever been, but if you don't rate his win over Duran highly and you consider he was a win over a peak Duran away from being above Britton at WW, then that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it.

We can agree that Jack Britton had an amazing career.

 

Definitely. Beating up Benny Leonard for 12 rounds at 37 is extremely impressive. It's a shame there's no footage of him. We can argue that Duran was a full welterweight, which is fair, but I'm sorry his condition just can't be ignored in the second fight. Although, I'd disagree with you in that Hearns would be a more meaningful win than Duran. A win over prime Duran would make SRL soar in ATG rankings IMO. He might even be top 10. Hearns was a great welter, but I'd consider beating Duran to be a much more significant accomplishment. But still, I'd consider a small WW in Benny Leonard to be a better win than 'No Mas' Duran any day.

It's a shame though, since I think SRL would've beaten prime Duran. If he did I'd have him number 2 behind Robinson in the division.

 

That's a strange take, tbh. Whilst Duran is clearly the greater p4p fighter, Hearns is universally considered to be both a greater WW and H2H better WW than Duran.

I mean, we know how Hearns vs Duran went. I try to be tolerant to opinions on anything subjective, i type "imo" more often than anything on here to be respectful, but in this instance, if im being honest with you, you're just plain wrong that a win over Duran at WW is greater, more significant or more difficult to achieve, than a win over Hearns.

SRL's win over Hearns is arguably the greatest in WW history.

 

I'm going to go "Head to Head " not just accomplishment.
# Ray Robinson
#2Ray Leonard
#3 Hearns
# 4 Armstrong
# 5Napoles
# 6 Griffith
#7 Curry
#8 Benitez
#9 Ross
#10 Walker
#11 Cuevas
#12 Rodriguez
# 13 Deloyhoya
#14 Trinidad
#15, my Wildcard would Be Roberto Duran, who was capable of beating any man on my list when focusef , with the exception of Thomas Hearns

 

Eh, you can debate Robinson's wins over Gavilan were better. Hearns might've been a great WW and an ATG win for Leonard but because I rank Duran so high (7 in my P4P rankings) it would certainly elevate Leonard's status by a ton if he beat the best version of him.

 

Perhaps you're right that Hearns is the more meaningful win at WW, but I think a win over Duran would still elevate him all time and have near equal value.

 

Yes you can. As you could Duran's win over SRL.

You can't reasonably debate that Duran is a better WW win than Hearns, though.

You have cited Ross and Duran as better WW wins than Hearns in this thread, I suspect because you rate them higher p4p, as do I. Neither was as formidable at WW, though.

The best WW win that SRL, Armstrong and Britton have between them, is Ray's over Hearns. He ranks the highest of all their wins on both WW greatness and H2H lists.

 

Can you explain why you rank Hearns above Ross as a win? Ross proved himself more at welter. He also has better wins than Hearns at welter. Yes Hearns is a H2H nightmare at 147 but it's not crazy to rank Armstrong's win over Ross over Leonard's win over Hearns, although I'd say they're neck and neck. Nobody ever dominated Ross like that.