Fighters that Ali sparred with........

I’ve done stupid, unwise and otherwise not-good-for me things. It’s not the fault of my friends for not stopping me.

Do you have any friends who have done stupid things? Things that aren’t good for them? Do you hold yourself responsible?

 

Well framed question Pat.

However it only examines one side, one perspective - you’re reading this so far and probably thinking, oh gee, he’s not going to answer - lol.

No, I will answer it honestly and it is easy, no, I’ve never been the type to blame anyone for what I’ve done in that regard but given degrees of impairment (say stupidity whilst inebriated) I would expect so called friends to do their best to stop me.

Even stone cold sober, I would expect so called friends to look out for me re bad judgment calls.

Therefore, if they didn’t try to stop but still calling them friends at the same time is very much a contradiction in terms.

To the flip side view. If a friend was clearly intending to do something stupid, under whatever cause of mental aberration (or maybe they’re just stupid, lol) and then did so, would you not feel in some way, part responsible if you didn’t try to stop him? I would.

And that assumed responsibility can come in other forms, not just in friendship and morality based but also, technically and legally. Overall: -

A Duty of Care.

That boxing attracts some of the worst hangers on, yes men and parasites is a no brainer - but that doesn’t make them any less culpable for their own contributing actions or lack of responsibility via omission.

So, I will just point back to my original assessment re those around Ali -who was also clearly impaired, not just physically but in terms of his perception that he could/should still get in the ring.

 

Yes but you’re assuming nobody who was friends with/around him told 42-year-old Ali that sparring was a bad idea. If someone told him that and he said, ‘I’m going to do what I want to do’ … are they supposed to tackle him to the floor and drag him out of the gym or something? Ali may have heard many people say things like ‘it’s time to hang it up’ or whatnot later in his career — he almost certainly did — and told them to keep their opinions to themselves. How are those people responsible if Ali chose to do what he chose to do?

You’re assuming trying to stop him/telling him it’s a bad idea = him saying ‘Oh, wow … OK, you’re right. I won’t do it.’ And I think that’s unlikely. I’ve been told many times not to do things that weren’t good for me (betting you have too) and done them anyway.

There’s also some levels of interpersonal permissions involved in relationships. Those close to me have my implicit (if not explicit) permissions to call me on bad ideas/judgments. Someone I’ve just met or whom I don’t know well … not to much. If you’re about to take your fifth drink the bar and a guy you met that night tells you to stop drinking, an inebriated you might tell them to take a hike … if your best friend takes you aside and says it, you might listen or at least not take offense. Some of Ali’s inner circle might have that permission but someone who has just joined the circus so to speak — maybe someone who has been added to the entourage as a go-fer type to run errands — does not. And if they are literally hired to do a specific job (a driver, a bag-carrier, whatever, who is being paid) then it’s not their business to tell the guy who hired them what to do.

And in this particular instance, how do we know who was with Ali that day? Did he go to the gym intending to spar and call up all his friends to tell them and ask their opinions, or did he show up because it was a gym opening or a favor to a friend and decide to put on the gloves? I don’t know in this case, but I’m going to say at 42 and out of the ring for a good bit of time, he probably didn’t call all his advisors and people and announce he planned to spar. He’s at a gym, maybe some yokel says ‘hey how about going a few rounds, champ?’ And he decides to do it.

So you’re talking about boxing people — hangers-on and ‘leeches’ — as if Ali has boxing people around him at 42 when he’s been retired for some time, like he’s bringing cornermen with him everywhere he goes.

And I wonder how many former boxers in their 40s have laced ‘em up in the gym a time or two because that’s what’s in their blood?

No matter how you slice it, this is Ali’s choice. It’s his life, it’s his body and just like you having a few too many or me doing something stupid, he’s allowed to make mistakes.

When someone famous we like/love/admire does stupid things, there’s a tendency to blame those around them. Because it can’t be the fault of the person we look up to, right? But when someone we don’t like does stupid things, we say ‘what an idiot’ and then it’s their fault. In reality, the accountability comes down to the person themselves. Good decisions have good consequences and bad decisions have bad consequences and no one can control the actions of another person.

 

Sometimes people need to be saved from "themselves" and it's pretty obvious Ali was one of these. If you saw an ex champion swimmer who ended up with a mental disability and who could virtually no longer swim to save themselves you're gonna stop them getting into the water yes?

 

OK, who at the gym that day was responsible for Ali sparring?

 

Of course, I am moving with that assumption. Are you assuming someone would've advised him against it or expressly chose not to enable it?

You asked who was there? Did you miss the heavily influential and controlling Herbert Muhammad, heavily influential and controlling, in attendance shouting words of encouragement? Yes, Ali at 42 with obvious neurological issues still had him there.

Those who directly facilitated it could've chosen not to. Without that facilitation, Ali wouldn't get to do what Ali wanted to do.

You're also ignoring the try hard goose he was sparring with also. Did Ali expect that from him? I think Ali appeared somewhat uncomfortable and angry. Do you think the heat in sparring was part of the plan? Repeat, it was to open a gym. You can wonder how many boxers in their 40s have laced them up - but we're talking Ali, who took impossible punishment over a long career - and, again, was clearly suffering from brain injury.

Actually, people who have screwed up need not be famous for other people to perceive that those around them could've done more than they did to prevent the screw up.

In fact, no matter how you're trying to singularly slice it (make it black and white, every man for himself, no duty of care) there are many more perspectives to be called in. I respect your opinion and know where you're coming from, but after laying our cases pretty thoroughly, we obviously disagree on several points. No dramas.

 

Yes, for sure. Exactly what I'm saying.

 

We are at loggerheads philosophically.

I don’t see how it is someone else is responsible for Ali’s choices, nor yours or mine.

I’ve had friends who have been alcoholics or drug addicts or become mentally ill. I’ve always told them I’m here to help if they need it. I’ve helped a small number get into rehab (and seen them relapse and fall back into old ways) or a psychiatric unit. I’ve even had a few people who I knew very well die of those things.

I don’t tell them what to do or not to do. I do make suggestions or tell them what I’d do if I were in their situations, but they have to come to those decisions on their own. I’m not responsible if they choose to do drugs or drink or not take their meds.

People are responsible for their own decisions and actions. I have no power over their lives. All I can do is support them the best I can. And while I understand those who say anyone around Ali should have walked away (as Pacheco did and Dundee didn’t), I don’t walk away from people I care for when they do self-destructive things that I do not support. I’d rather be in their lives so I can hopefully be of some help or service to them when they do want help.

I don’t hold anyone but Ali responsible for Ali’s choices, whether to fight on beyond when he should have quit or to spar that day. It’s not their fault. It was his life to do with what he wanted. I think letting him off the hook and blaming others is a cop-out to not hold him responsible

Let me ask you this: I think Mike Tyson was almost 55 years old when he fought Roy Jones Jr in an exhibition. Should he have been in the ring at that age? I assume he sparred — probably even before the exhibition was arranged — to get a feel for whether he could still do this or not and see what he had still in the tank. Should someone have stopped him? Whose responsibility was it if not Tyson’s?

I’ve seen hundreds of posts saying others should have stopped Ali from fighting Holmes or Berbick. I’ve seen hundreds of posts saying Evander Holyfield and Roy Jones Jr should have retired … yet not one saying others should have made them do so. I haven’t seen anyone ever disagree that Tyson should have retired after the Lennox Lewis fight if not before. Yet not one saying someone should have made him do so. What’s the difference?

 

Pat, I’ve already illustrated what are obviously the clear differences and nuances here - I was talking Ali and his particular case.

I could easily address Mike Tyson’s case also - but we’re not talking Tyson’s exact case are we?


That’s straying from the specific case in question - but suffice to say, there were obvious differences - and a good number of people didn’t think it a good idea anyway - especially not for Roy - If Tyson went all out and really gone for the head, which he obviously didn’t - that could’ve been very dangerous for Roy.

I’ve answered questions already and actually refuted claims you’ve made - like, who was there to stop Ali or at least influence him not to spar? - H Muhammad no less who was encouraging Ali to ramp it up in the ring.

Due respect but you’ve skipped that and several other points I’ve made to return statements I’ve already addressed and answered.

I’ve broken it down to irreducible terms. I’ve had the same life experiences you spoke of - and yes, I have helped people out - of course perhaps there are some who cannot be helped - but utmost help would be at least expected.

WHO was even trying to help or prevent Ali?

I didn’t say walk away - I said do not enable/facilitate and clearly I’m talking discourage as much as is possible.

If all the direct players who did facilitate/enable - didn’t do so, then it doesn’t happen. Simple. Ali can do what he pleases be can’t do it without them.

You appear to be running with two lines also - you’ve never understood the “ideal” of people pointing the finger of “blame” but now you’ve never read same?

If there are hundreds saying X,Y & Z should’ve retired then it’s likely obvious they should’ve retired AND that those around them, with greater influence and with supporting roles they they CAN withdraw, should’ve been saying same directly to them and heavily encouraging it.

 

You simply tell him you are not sparring end of story. And anyone who would actually get into the ring and spar with a former boxer who CLEARLY is showing signs of brain damage is a complete idiot. My god he actually getting serious with Ali who was damaged.
What if he would have actually seriously hurt Ali? How would the gym owner responded or even justified that? Oh its ok we know he has brain damage but he wanted to spar so we let him?

 

Have you yet said that Ali has any responsibility here for his own choices and actions? Or is it all on other people.

I don’t know the date of this. You keep going to ‘obviously brain damaged’ and I don’t think despite the slurring that people considered him damaged at all until the Parkinson’s diagnosis became public. I didn’t hear the interviewer mention that he’s been diagnosed with Parkinson’s.

I think you’re looking at it through the lens of ‘we know he had Parkinson’s’ even though people didn’t know it until he was actually diagnosed and it became public. Yes his speech was slurred but no one at the time said that meant he was seriously brain damaged … if you were around then and went to boxing gyms you had surely seen people who slurred their words somewhat who weren’t considered majorly damaged because they were very functional.

I don’t hold others responsible for Ali’s choices.

 

I’m not looking at this through any biased, distorted or 20/20 hindsight lens.

I’ve been perfectly factual and objective.

Slurred speech in boxing is obviously a strong indicator for brain damage.

If I was told I had any measure of brain damage I would consider it instantly serious AND I wouldn’t continue feeding the likely cause - and I would also expect others not to try to encourage and facilitate me in that regard.

That slurred speech often occurs in the context of boxing and is apparently somewhat acceptable for some people (a distorted lens in itself) doesn’t make it any less serious.

Pacheco left Ali’s camp due to Ali failing a battery of medical tests (including assessment of basic coordination). There were comments re Ali’s condition otherwise around that time -

I was very young at the time and even I could see the impairments and it’s obvious that those closest to Ali knew even more and worse - as at the time.

Again, I return to my well considered, original assessment and conclusions.

 

Ali was not considered a person walking around with brain damage until his Parkinson’s diagnosis. That’s in retrospect. In fact, even Parkinson’s wasn’t (and to my understanding is not today) considered ‘brain damage’ as there are plenty of people with Parkinson’s who haven’t had any known brain trauma. (There is a genetic component — I’ve read, and don’t know if this is established fact, that Ali’s father also had Parkinson’s.) You’re looking at it through a modern lens.

Ferdie Pacheco walked away because he thought Ali had KIDNEY damage. That was his concern. He stated so publicly to newsmen from places like the New York Times and Washington Post. When Ali was checked out by the Mayo Clinic and given passing medical marks (with no kidney damage), Pacheco said publicly he was ‘ecstatic’ to hear it and that it was now a boxing, not medical, decision whether to keep fighting.

Pacheco was by his side as Ali’s doctor for years and never once brought up brain damage.

(Years later, Pacheco would make a lot of claims, but these are recorded in newspaper accounts from his own mouth.)

Those are facts.

We know a lot more now than we knew then about the long-term affects of concussive and sub-concussive blows. In 20 years, what we know then might make what we think we know today seem archaic.

 

I've proven clearly that I am not looking at it through a modern lens. To merely repeat that false perception doesn't cut it at all. An intended rug pull that doesn’t correlate to what I’ve put forward already.

I have read differently re Ali's failed medical exams and Pacheco's reasons for departure.

The Surgeon General officially ruled a connection between smoking and cancer in 1957 - do you think no one had a handle on the correlation prior to - including other smoking related impairments? Of course not.

Likewise, do you think those in the game and/or closest to Ali didn't perceive the obvious effects of his being repeatedly hit in the head and understand the cause?

Your perception of a boxer being slurry yet "functional" is highly subjective and I'm guessing that perception involved less-than-ideal exposure and without medical backup to support that perception?

You're actually preaching/echoing the same defense plied by those closest to Ali at the time. TBH, that's rather naive to not understand the essential motives behind those "defenses" - to exonerate themselves of ANY blame in terms of enabling and facilitation.

Under separate cover, re the kidney's, do you really think that Ali had no evidence of kidney damage after ALL the years of punishment he took to the body, p*ssing blood after fights etc? You couldn't increase the likelihood of kidney damage more if you tried.

Keep skipping Herbert Muhammad who made good $$$ off Ali - and who WAS present at that sparring session, ENCOURAGING Ali. You asked WHO was there who could PREVENT IT - you were duly answered. It seems your just sliding from one answered/refuted point to yet another.

Dundee often said Ali did what he wanted to do - BUT Angie often waxed lyrical about his ability to "subliminally" influence Ali - did Ali not want to quit in Miami, but Dundee "pushed" him back out there? If Ali had it his way then he quits in Miami.

YET AGAIN, I will say, I've been perfectly objective, factual and have applied a good and much needed dose of common sense to the discussion.

Trying to push deeper into the woods to find another shaky tree to hug only serves to completely ignore the fallen trees behind you and the entire forest also.