Would Ali go Undefeated Vs Lennox Lewis Competition

In all fairness though Cooney might be able to kayo some champions who weren't known for great defense like Marciano for example

I don't think the idea of someone who achieved little in their era beating the top guys of other eras sits well with people but unfortunately its probably true in some cases

I mean it's not unlikely someone like Luis Ortiz could beat Jim Jeffries I should think

 

Is he the gentleman who said Tommy Gunn would beat the Brown Bomber?

 

I'm not trolling. You simply can't read or you're ignoring what I wrote and pretending I said something I didn't (which seems to be the new trolling these days).

Ali didn't fight Foreman, Liston and Shavers two years into his pro career.

Ali fought Sonny Banks two years into his pro career and got floored. That's the same time period Lennox Lewis was fighting 35-0 Gary Mason. How does the Ali who fought Sonny Banks do against Gary Mason. That's my point. I stated that clearly, and you just ignored it.

Ali didn't fight Foreman in three years into his pro career, he fought Doug Jones (who he barely edged) and Henry Cooper, who floored him. Three years into his pro career, Lewis was beating Ruddock in two rounds. How would the Clay who was struggling with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper do with the #1 contender Razor Ruddock who Lewis faced, because he wasn't going to win on cuts, that's for sure?

Those are the comparisons. How would Ali do against Lennox's opponents. The Ali who fought Foreman didn't fight Sonny Banks.

I'm pitting Ali in his first year against Lennox's opponents in Lennox's first year and on and on ... like Lennox faced them.

 

Certainly wouldn't be surprised.

 

Maybe so, but his record doesn't suggest that. He only beat one ranked fighter, who was shot, and didn't deserve his ranking.

I do think he showed in his fight with Holmes, that he was better than record suggests and would've performed that much better without that year off.

 

Is this what you're referring to? I wrote this three years ago. (Who remembers this ****.) You consider this post trolling?

Going in to their title challenges ...

Liston won a 12-round decision over Eddie Machen (who was coming off a loss to Zora Folley the same year). By comparison, Ken Norton (a Hall of Famer) was coming off a win over top-10 ranked Tex Cobb (who had just beaten Shavers). Cooney stopped Norton in 54 seconds.

Liston stopped Howard King, a journeyman with nearly 30 losses/draws, who hadn't won any of his last five fights. Cooney broke Ron Lyle's rib and stopped him in one. Liston stopped King in three.

Liston knocked out Albert Westphal in one. Westphal was no bigger than Canelo. He was 24-8-2. He was never a contender. Cooney tore Jimmy Young's face off and stopped him in four. Young was 25-9-2. He'd been the #1 contender a year and a half earlier. Young was coming off a win over British and Commonwealth Champ John L. Gardner. Westphal was coming off a loss to German champ Eric Schoppner.

Cooney's wins entering his title challenge with Holmes were fine. Cooney was 25-0 and 25 years old. He was considered the heir apparent. Liston was 33-1 and either 30 or 32 years old. He was considered the heir apparent, too.

If Cooney had faced Floyd Patterson for the title instead of Holmes, Cooney wins. If Liston had to fight 1982 Larry Holmes for the title in his first crack at the crown, Liston may never have won anything either.

Over the course of their careers, Liston beat a couple guys who were better than some guys Cooney beat. But I wouldn't pick Zora Folley or Nino Valdes over Cooney. Cooney fought more Hall of Famers (Foreman, Holmes, Spinks, Norton). Beat one. Liston fought two (Ali and Patterson). Beat one.

But '82 Cooney vs. '62 Liston, I'd lean toward Cooney head-to-head.

That's the "TROLLING" on my part that is still at the forefront of your mind three years later? I'd "lean" toward Cooney? That's what set you off?

I can see someone disagreeing, but how the hell is saying "leaning" toward Cooney trolling? And who would even remember that? I didn't even remember typing that. I had to look it up. That's just a nothing post. Who is so offended by that they remember it years later?

Can't you just say you disagree and move on like every last person who saw it did?

Some of you guys must think you only post TIMELESS PEARLS OF WISDOM to be such freaking critics of others.

Well, at least you remembered it. I don't remember anything you ever posted.

 

Believe me you never forget such a stupid pick. Not to mention, the out and out deceptiveness and the lies.

Regarding the hall of famers, you pointed out Cooney fought MORE hall of famers but neglected to mention he has less wins. Liston has two wins over the hall of famer you mentioned. Cooney has one.

In addition, Liston's two wins were over the world heavyweight champion in his prime. Cooney's over a shot Norton who didn't even deserve his laughable rating, and was getting battered over the top rope by a journeyman before an early bell saved him two years prior.

I'll concede I was wrong, when I said you weren't entertaining. Your deceptiveness, inconsistencies, contradictions, and flat out lies bring some much needed laughs to this site. I think I'll leave out your laughable love letters to Wilder. I don't even need them to make my case.

In addition you stated, Young was the number one contender a year and a half prior to facing Cooney.....

Young had been out of the title picture for over two years at that point when he lost to Norton. Even in his loss to Norton he was only the number TWO contender. https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-missoulian/123472329/

Also, contrary to you laughably trying to make it out like Young was still anywhere near his best for Cooney, here's YOUR post regarding Young's bout with Foreman where you admit Young was never the same after that bout

[QUOTE="Dubblechin, post: 21041761, member: 107480"Young really wasn't the fighter he was that night ever again, either. It was the absolute pinnacle of his career. It's difficult to duplicate that.[/QUOTE]

I will however, bring up the statement I bolded where you claimed you made the post three years ago. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...-cooney-15-rounds.660869/page-6#post-21453759

As you can see, the post was made in December 21, 2021. So it wasn't three, or even two years ago. It was just over a year ago, a year and four months to be exact. Not that it matters when you made the post (the only thing that matters is the sheer absurdity of it) but why the **** lie about something so insignificant? Are you capable of telling the truth about anything?

 

Deceptiveness and lies?

Only YOU seem to care about this. I don't like Cooney. Want me to "lean" towards Liston? Okay. I LEAN toward Liston.

Want me to pick Liston by Brutal KO. Okay, I pick Liston by brutal KO.

I could make a similar argument for Liston winning. But, at that time, I made an argument for Cooney.

Get over it. Christ. It's a boxing board. I don't even remember picking anyone. Is leaning toward someone picking them?

They're mythical matchups. They're make believe. I just come on here to talk about boxing with people.

Who is living and dying because someone "leans" toward a fighter on a message board and still recalls who picks whom years later? Who gives a ****?

Trust me, I don't care who you picked ever. Don't concern yourself with who I pick. Who either of us picks means nothing. We're just here because we like boxing.

I'm not a rage-aholic like some of you are. Nobody's picks weigh on my mind for years, not even my own.

Try to enjoy yourself more.

I'm going to take that advice and go do something else. Because whatever this is you're trying to drag me into, it isn't fun.

 

No one said Ali beat them 2 years into his pro career, what is your point? My point was that Ali beat some of the biggest punchers in history.

You're trying to force a square peg into a circle by cherry picking exactly what Ali was doing the same years Lewis was a pro to draw weird conclusions. You emphasize size and weight above all as if that would be enough for mediocre boxers like Gary Mason and Tyrell Biggs to beat arguably the greatest HW of all time. It's stupid as hell. Biggs and Mason hardly won jack **** in their own era, but you're giving them a chance to upset the greatest?

For your argument to make any sort of sense at all, you'd need to show footage of Mason and Biggs defeating boxers that were somewhat similar to Ali in style/ability.

You can put a magnifying glass on Ali being decked by Cooper or having a hard time with Doug Jones but he beat them. The fact that they weigh less than some of Lewis opponents doesn't automatically mean Ali would lose to them, that's not how actual boxing works and you know it. That's why I assumed you were trolling. Anyone can cherry pick bad moments in a guys career and act like that defines the fighter.

 

I'm pitting Ali in his first year as a pro against the opponents Lewis fought in his first year as a pro and so on and so on. It's not brain surgery. I can't be any clearer.

We're talking Ali against Lennox's opponents. So I'm going Ali in year one against Lewis' opponents in year one.

It makes more sense than pitting a prime Ali against every last guy Lennox Lewis ever fought. I'm trying to add a fraction of "reality" to it.

But, seriously, I have no interest in this topic anymore. If you think scrawny little Ali in his second year as a pro beats Gary Mason who Lewis fought in his second year as a pro, more power to you. If you think the Tua who Lewis fought in his 11th year as a pro could wack Ali in the jaw with his left hook and all 245 pounds behind it, and the Ali who fought Frazier in 1971 (his 11th year as a pro) would laugh it off, FINE.

We just disagree. That doesn't make me or anyone else who DISAGREES with you a troll.

Everyone doesn't have to act like a dick. Some people just want to talk boxing. Not freaking blow up at everyone.

 

I literally never said this. I even acknowledged Tua could knock Ali down, then you respond with a strawman as if I was saying Ali would laugh off Tua's hook.

So I was wrong, you're not a troll, you just use logic fallacies whenever you respond instead of addressing what someone said.

 

I love how you don't even acknowledge the numerous lies I called you out on. It's just as well because their's absolutely nothing you can say that will make it any less false.

"I don't even remember picking anyone. Is leaning toward someone picking them?"

.......

I rest my case.