George Foreman (First Career) Vs Oleksandr Usyk?

Foreman did weigh 224 against Norton and 229 against Jimmy Young.

 

The weight data provided by @JohnThomas1 for the Usyk - Hunter bout brings us much closer to Oleksandr’s in ring weight as a CW. The data is very solid. It reduces the scope previously allowed for prior speculations as to Usyk's actual weight (and weight gains) come fight time. To reiterate, the unofficial weight 24 hours after the official weigh in reflected a weight gain of just 7 1/2 lbs while Usyk's opponent actually dropped 1/2 lb. As a specific case in point, at least in regard to weight, the Usyk v Hunter bout also disproves the claim that Oleksandr and his opposition were Foreman sized come fight time.


Of course, as a HW Usyk didn't have to dry out, reduce or whatever. He also took the opportunity to bulk up. His first foray at HW saw him at 215 lbs. He incrementally increased his weight from there to a, to date, top weight of 221 1/2 lbs. I'm not sure what the basis is here for claiming an upper weight limit of 230'ish lbs for Usyk. It was Foreman in fact who weighed a max. of 231 1/2 lbs in his first career vs Dino Dennis and if one refreshes on the vision, it can be seen that Foreman carries the weight very well relative to his frame. Young Foreman also had several other fights otherwise weighing 229 lbs.


Ali didn't outmuscle Foreman in sheer terms. Ali, while very strong in his own right was simply smarter in the application of his own strength. In Zaire, we saw Foreman begin to fatigue early, the energy reserves required to drive the muscle fast depleting. Ali himself noted Foreman strength, describing Foreman as throwing him to the ropes as if he was a "rag doll". Isolated from whatever his weight was, Foreman was an extraordinarily strong fighter. Even at just 21 you, 218 lbs, we can see Foreman easily hurling the near 215 lb Canadian strong man George Chuvalo halfway across the ring.


Leading into the Zaire bout, Ali railed against the general perception that Foreman was a giant and a bigger man than himself. Ali argued that George was 6' 2 1/2" like himself. That was not true. Foreman was a solid 1" taller. The vision from Zaire provided for one of the most squarely viewed face offs. Here is a still that clearly indicates Foreman's height advantage over Ali. Ali's head is slightly bowed but its still obvious that Foreman is the taller of the two - and that actual live vision upholds it even better. Imo, Foreman was a good 6'3 1/2" at least - and he was listed as such at least for the Ron Lyle fight. Imo, Foreman was obviously, a naturally bigger man than Usyk.

For some reason I'm having issues with the link insert feature. Anyway, here is the URL for the snapshot in question.

[url]Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman: The Canceled Funeral - Boxing Daily[/url]

 

Foreman weighed in at 217 1/2 vs Frazier though. That's only 10 pounds above what Usyk weighed in cruiserweight fights 207 and 208. That's hardly a massive difference.

Moreover we don't have weight data for his cruiserweight opponents some of whom clearly outweighed Hunter

 

You're selecting a lower weight during Foreman's career. For one, George weighed 224 lbs a few years earlier for the Leroy Caldwell bout. For another, George weighed 224 lbs for the Frazier rematch. That's a 17 lb pull.

Anyway, 10 lbs is 10 lbs and, atop that, that difference represents a hydrated Usyk vs a dehydrated Foreman.

No, we don't have the data for other CW opponents - but even given the data we do have for this one fight - people are still trying to claim Usyk to be bigger than he actually was for that fight.

And I think it would be likely IF the opponent in question (Hunter) didn't also have his weight recorded 24 hours later, people would be claiming that he too gained a good measure of weight back - which clearly wasn't the case.

At any rate, I don't know if an unofficial, 24 hours later weigh in only occurred for that fight. Perhaps there are others - subject to contracts and broadcasters.

 

Could this possibly approximate to a jacket swap between Foreman and Usyk?


[url]Jimmy Fallon tried on Shaq’s jacket - YouTube[/url]

 

Also note i haven't mentioned height in the entire thread so you probably needed to note it with someone else.

 

Mchunu looked huge in there. I wonder how much he weighed fight night? 210, 215 ya reckon?

 

Well at any rate i did supply something factual in a thread apparently full of suppositions. I can no way believe people claiming Usyk entered the ring at over 215, that's for sure. I'm happy to go with the 208 and it's a similar fight night weight he's produced before.

 

Now this is where the rubber meets the road.

Usyk's walking around weight was 220. There's no way on earth his "natural" fighting size is above or around his walking around weight. This is pure common sense. Dropping down to 210 simply thru the course of getting into shape for a fight would be an entirely standard thing, perhaps even down to around 205. Usyk's natural fighting weight with no restrictions would be around 210 for mine. You've basically said it yourself above.

His first fight at Heavyweight, after an 11 month break was at 215. This is far more of an indication of his natural size than anything since and he had a huge amount of time to ready himself, unrestricted, for his heavyweight assault. It's safe to say 215 at the highest is his natural size and realistically 210 would be closer. A full year later he was still only 217 1/4 and almost 2 x a year after he settled on 221.

He's simply following the age old moving up to heavyweight pattern of putting on unnatural gains, even if he carries it brilliantly or looks superb. It's all part of bulking up to where they feel they need to be or can get to and stay effective in order to handle the big boys.

Michael Spinks walking around weight was 187-192 pounds. From there he'd lose about 15 pounds or even a little more to make 175 under the old weigh in rules. Now he may have trained/dieted down a little more than Usyk making his target but his "natural" fighting weight is sure as heck under his walking around weight. Obviously getting in shape for a fight is gonna drop the pounds.

Yet 3 months and 2 weeks after his last ever fight at 175 here he was at 199 3/4 pounds beating Larry Holmes, 221 pounds. He felt the need to get bigger in order to compete at heavyweight and there he was 10 pounds above his walking around weight. He followed a completely different training program and was pounding down 4500 calories a day most of them carbs. For the rematch Spinks was 205, then 201, then 208 3/4 before 212 1/4 against Tyson.

You mentioned earlier your belief that Usyk's best performance was at 221. You said he looks absolutely natural at 221, he moved natural at the weight etc. Well Spinks was all of that against Holmes around the 200 pound mark against Larry Holmes and we know beyond a shadow of doubt 200 pounds wasn't his natural size. Usyk has followed a very similar pattern but on a heavier scale, he's bigger than Spinks and the current Heavyweights are a bigger lot.

I mean 2 years after fighting at Cruiserweight the man was still only weighing 217. Spinks popped up to 200 in 3 months flat and it was extremely usable weight, just like Usyk.

The bottom line is Spinks "natural" fighting weight sure isn't 200 or 208 pounds plus just like Usyk's isn't 220 no matter how good of a fist they made of it.

Foreman is notably heavier naturally for mine. His walking around weight would be at least 15 pounds heavier IMO.

 

No worries we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Usyk was a different being once he concentrated on heavyweight. Of course his walking around weight was going to be much higher as he'd been concentrating on gaining mass (slowly in his case) to compete with big heavyweights. His caloric intake would have been higher and he would have maintained a higher standard weight and he didn't want to take too much off as that would be counterproductive.

By the time he was in between Joshua matches he'd been a heavyweight for 3 years plus. Spinks too would have been walking around at well above 190 odd after he had fought Holmes.

I understand your point but i'm not totally convinced.

There's a lot of speculation in all this.

 

We had a 100 pager (or so) on Toney - GGG a few years back. Guess who started it at an opportune time