the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

Juan Manuel Marquez v Julian Wheeler

Round 1: 10-9 Marquez
Round 2: 10-9 Marquez
Round 3: 10-10 Even
Round 4: 10-9 Marquez
Round 5: 10-10 Even
Round 6: 10-9 Marquez
Round 7: 10-9 Marquez
Round 8: 10-9 Wheeler
Round 9: 10-9 Wheeler
Round 10: Referee stops bout with 10 seconds to go.

Total through 9 completed rounds: 88-85 Marquez (actual scores not known but it is stated that Wheeler led on 2 out of 3 cards)

There has been a lot of controversy on this bout. I, personally, was more impressed with Marquez' harder punching than Wheeler's counter-punching slaps. However, there were some close rounds such as 3 and 5 and I felt Wheeler should have gotten credit for a knockdown in the 8th, so a matter of opinion could change the scoring considerably. One part that I felt was undeniably controversial was Larry Rozadilla's quick stoppage in the 10th. Wheeler had been buzzed but had the wherewithal to clinch as necessary to clear the cobwebs, so really odd that he would suddenly terminate matters.

 

David Tua v Monte Barrett I (some crap title)

Round 1: 10-10 Even
Round 2: 10-9 Tua
Round 3: 10-9 Barrett
Round 4: 10-9 Tua
Round 5: 10-9 Tua
Round 6: 10-9 Barrett
Round 7: 10-9 Barrett
Round 8: 10-10 Even
Round 9: 10-9 Tua
Round 10: 10-9 Barrett
Round 11: 10-10 Even
Round 12: 10-7 Barrett (scores a knockdown and Tua is docked a point for rough-housing ((threw Barrett to the deck)))

Total: 116-113 Barrett (actual scores: 115-111 Tua and 2 scores of 113-113 for a majority Draw)

To begin, I just want to say I've always been a massive Tua fan, but I gotta call them the way I see them. It wasn't scintillating stuff because Barrett lacked a big punch and Tua did his usual landing one at a time style of punching, so it's up to the judge on his preference as well. With 3 Even rounds I could very well have this a draw if I was leaning towards Tua, but it is what it is. That last round clearly threw a wrench in the works for two of the judges. I thought Tua started out great, but then lost the point for roughing up Barrett - a bit harsh I thought - but then Barrett turned tiger and dropped Tua. So a round that started out so well for Tua (I would have had Tua the winner by a point if he kept the head) turned into 3 points for Barrett. One other thing, I've said it in the past that i don't mind Col. Bob Sheridan at all. He brings a certain excitement with him that I like. I always laugh when he gets excited because he sounds like he's losing his s**t.

 

Matthew Saad Muhammad v. Marvin Johnson I

Classic slug fest, Matthew Saad Muhammad showing superhuman endurance. If Johnson knew how to hold he may have won a close decision IMO. Definitely a fight that could have been stopped 20 seconds before it was.

1 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 10

2 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

3 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

4 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

5- Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

6 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

7 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

8 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

9 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

10 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

11 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

12 - KO 12 win for Saad Muhammad

Saad Muhammad 104 - Johnson 106

 

Matthew Saad Muhammad v. Marvin Johnson II

Classic slug fest part 2! Matthew Saad Muhammad showing superhuman endurance. If Johnson knew how to hold he may have won a close decision IMO. Definitely a fight that could have been stopped 20 seconds before it was.

1 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 10

2 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

3 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

4 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

5- Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

6 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

7 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

8 - Saad Muhammad 9 Johnson 10

9 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

10 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

11 - Saad Muhammad 10 Johnson 9

12 - KO 12 win for Saad Muhammad

Saad Muhammad 104 - Johnson 106

 

Whitaker vs Ramirez I

OK so this surprised me! So I had not seen this fight before and assumed it was the blatant robbery of legend through the first 5 rounds which I had as a shut out for Sweet Pea. I thought I was going to have to give Jose Luis some pity rounds so it was not totally embarrassing. Then Whitaker seemed to gas and while Ramirez was not pretty he had a major surge in the middle rounds and landed far more punches than he is given credit for. I rewatched a few rounds and while he did miss a lot and land many on Pernell's gloves he did some mighty fine body punching and frankly you could see the result as a lot of the zing went out of Sweet Pea's punches.

Going into the final two rounds I still thought Whitaker would get it but rather than take the title he back-pedalled and held like he was 5 rounds ahead just coasting to an easy win.

I am frankly surprised by my scoring, before I watched it on Youtube I read a lot of the Spanish comments saying it was close and thought "yeah yeah whatever" but I agree! I should explain I am not someone who rates sluggers over artists, I am a big fan of Pernell but many rounds were very close and could have gone either way and I felt Ramirez wanted it more. This fight reminded me of Castillo vs Mayweather I, Hagler vs Leonard and of course Chavez vs Whitaker.

I will go on record and say Ramirez did a better job than Chavez against Sweet Pea. I always felt only a blind man could score a Chavez win in that fight but I genuinely think this fight was a pick 'em, depending on what you value as you score. I feel a lot more respect for Ramirez, who was obviously terrific as we saw against Arguello (who many thought he won) and in Rosario 2, but feel it is a shame that this has been filed away as a robbery when he actually fought a tough ballsy fight and this should be seen as one of the highlights of his career. Would have been interesting if this was a 15 round fight, would Whitaker have got a second wind? Ramirez didn't look tired and probably could have gone 20!

I think over confidence, lack of experience and possibly lack of conditioning cost Sweet Pea the title. I also think this decision made him a better fighter as we never saw him make the same mistakes again.

1 - Whitaker 10 vs Ramirez 9

2- Whitaker 10 vs Ramirez 9

3 - Whitaker 10 vs Ramirez 9

4 - Whitaker 10 vs Ramirez 9

5 - Whitaker 10 vs Ramirez 9

6 - Whitaker 9 vs Ramirez 10

7 - Whitaker 9 vs Ramirez 10

8 - Whitaker 9 vs Ramirez 10

9 - Whitaker 9 vs Ramirez 10

10 - Whitaker 10 vs Ramirez 10

11 - Whitaker 9 vs Ramirez 10

12 - Whitaker 9 vs Ramirez 10

FINAL Ramirez 115 - Whitaker 114

 

Dude, you're not alone on this. I believe this fight has taken on the status of urban myths. I remember seeing it live but didn't score it. However, seeing a scorecard from @PhillyPhan69 prompted me to sit down and check it out. It's one of those fights where you have to strip down the myths and pay attention to what is actually happening there. Philly and @Saintpat scored it similar to us and there are others who did not. Regardless, this is what I wrote:

Jose Luis Ramirez v Pernell Whitaker I

Round 1: 10-9 Whitaker
Round 2: 10-9 Whitaker
Round 3: 10-10 Even
Round 4: 10-9 Whitaker
Round 5: 10-9 Ramirez
Round 6: 10-9 Ramirez
Round 7: 10-9 Ramirez
Round 8: 10-9 Ramirez
Round 9: 10-10 Even
Round 10: 10-9 Ramirez
Round 11: 10-9 Whitaker
Round 12: 10-9 Whitaker

Total: 115-115 Draw (actual scores: 118-113 and 116-115 both for Ramirez and a 117-113 for Whitaker for a split win for Ramirez)

The first time I saw this live I didn't put pen to paper but thought half-heartedly, 'Yeah, Whitaker is probably going to get this but he doesn't deserve it.' I was amazed he didn't get the verdict but that was due to all the media hype on Whitaker, not for what went on in the ring. At the time, I just didn't feel like he won and that was down to the way the fight unfolded. Anyways, to clarify after watching this again, Whitaker boxed nicely early but by the time the middle of the fight came along he was quite literally running (I counted 5 times he actually turned his back and ran). This was not ring generalship. This was running and chasing. Now if he was at least firing while running I could make more of a case for him but Ramirez did far better on the chase than the announcing team gave him credit for. In fact, they gave him credit for nothing. I watched the telecast with Don Chevier (spelling) and Angelo Dundee. And you could not have found two bigger Pernell Whitaker cheerleaders than these two. Never once did I hear 'Good left hook by Ramirez' or 'Great pressure'. Nothing. However, they would acknowledge at the end of a round where they were lauding Whitaker's efforts, 'Ramirez likely took that round'. I was thinking, 'Really? You never said a thing what he did well.' I almost laughed out loud when one of them talked about Whitaker's 'wincing body shots'. Anyways, I felt Whitaker came off his bike somewhat those last two rounds to fight out of the pocket and took those rounds on my card. But I gotta say, zone out on the announcers and watch this for what actually occurs in the ring. I just don't see it as the robbery it is made out to be. One other thing, I never saw Whitaker fight this kind of running fight again, so he definitely learned from this and made him a better fighter.

 

I’m with you. Here’s how I scored it a while back:

Jose Luis Ramirez (c) vs. Pernell Whitaker, scheduled for 12 rounds for the WBC lightweight championship at Stade de Levallos, Levallos-Perret, Hautz-de-Sienna, France. (That’s a mouthful.)

This is Ramirez’s second defense of the vacant title he won from Terrence Alli. He has won 11 in a row. He weighs 135 and is 100-6.

Whitaker is 134 1/4 and comes in 15-0.

Battle of southpaws.

1. Whitaker 10-9: Some good body work.

2. Whitaker 10-9: Works his jab effectively and is just too slick, a ghost JLR cannot find in the dark.

3. Ramirez 10-9: More pressure, bigger shots, better jab.

4. Whitaker 10-9: Close. A yawner.

5. Ramirez 10-9: More clean shots from the champ and some good body work. He’s closing the distance and Pernell is more and more on his bicycle and punching less and less.

6. Ramirez 10-9: Effectively aggressive against an opponent who doesn’t look like he wants to fight.

7. Ramirez 10-9: Same, with JRL landing a few snappy, long lefts.

8. Ramirez 10-9: Same pattern but now Whitaker is turning his back and walking away.

9. Whitaker 10-9: Close. A few combos edge it.

10. Whitaker 10-9: Same thing, again close.

11. Ramirez 10-9: He worked three minutes. The other guy fought in spurts and his work wasn’t impressive enough to overcome the lesser workrate.

12. Even, 10-10: Whitaker planted his feet and landed a few nice combos, but he also ran and clinched, ran and clinched, and Ramirez gritted it out and kept punching. Depends on what you like.

My card: 115-114 Ramirez.

Official cards: 118-113 Ramirez, 116-115 Ramirez, 113-112 Whitaker.

Flip around the close rounds and my card could be wider for Ramirez, but you could also give Whitaker the even round at the end.

Pernell did a lot of things that probably didn’t win him favor with the judges. It’s hard to give a guy rounds when he turns his back and walks away repeatedly, when he does circles around the ring flicking a couple of non-punches and then ties up his opponent, when he grabs JLR around the lower legs at one point and does that ducking below the waist — mostly without bothering to throw a punch.

The thing that’s hard to determine is how effective Whitaker’s jab was. I don’t think it was for the most part — there were a few nice spears here and there, but a lot of them go over JLR’s shoulder or head or are parried. I think Ramirez in a lot of stretches was the better defensive fighter (just not as slick about it, but good hand placement, parrying, slipping and blocking). Sometimes when Sweet Pea actually does throw a three- or four-punch combination (rare) he misses every one of them.

So there you have it. I know a lot of people believe Whitaker won and I can believe that if you have it close, but in no way did he run away with this fight or come close to pitching a shutout. He mostly let it get away. Even if you don’t agree with the judges, I think if you watch it you can see how they got there just off Sweet Pea’s inactivity.

 

Very interesting analysis and glad I am not mad! I watched it with Ray Mancini co-commentating and he seems pretty fair and often critical of Whitaker for holding etc but he still thinks it is a robbery at the end. As you said I tried to tune it out and really focused on the action. I am a big one for taking a title if you are the challenger rather than sneaking it, this is a reason I think Mayweather lost Castillo I. Interesting point about ring generalship, in Chavez fight it always felt like Sweet Pea was making Julio fight his fight. Against Ramirez you can see Jose Luis turn the tide and I think a a lot of Whitaker's clowning is to mask tiredness.

One other thing, it really made me wonder if Pernell would have handled Chavez around this time. While I feel Pernell clearly won their fight I think at lightweight or LWW between 1988-1990 he may have had a lot more problems.

Have you seen Chavez vs Ramirez, how does Julio do?

 

Thanks, great break down! I think the score for 118-113 for Ramirez was partially why it was seen as a robbery as this is such a crazy score and screams "Don King bought me a fancy lunch today". When at least one judge is blind or corrupt it puts a bad smell over the whole fight, like the one crazy score card in Hagler-Leonard.

One thing that occurred to me is the naivety of the Whitaker camp, coasting when you are fighting in Europe against the home (adopted) fighter is madness. Any number of UK fans can tell you you need a KO to get a draw in Europe against a home favourite

Btw how do you feel this would have gone if 15 rounder?

 

I did. This is what I wrote:

Julio Cesar Chavez v Jose Luis Ramirez (WBA & WBC lightweight titles)

Round 1: 10-9 Chavez
Round 2: 10-9 Ramirez
Round 3: 10-9 Chavez
Round 4: 10-9 Chavez
Round 5: 10-9 Chavez
Round 6: 10-9 Chavez
Round 7: 10-9 Chavez
Round 8: 10-9 Chavez
Round 9: 10-9 Chavez
Round 10: 10-10 Even
Round 11: Fight is terminated after a clash of heads results in a cut on Ramirez' forehead that the Doctor deems stoppage-worthy. Note: 1 point is deducted from Chavez' score under WBC rules

Total: 98-92 Chavez (actual scores: 98-91, 96-94 and 95-93 all for Chavez)

Elephant in the room time; I never felt Ramirez was a real puncher. I know, I know that he has 80 KOs to his credit and he decked Arguello. But it really wasn't until I watched this fight and had a good comparison to see what is amiss here. And, IMO, I see that Ramirez is more of a relentless clubbing-puncher that would slowly beat you down, like he did in Rosario II or against Boza Edwards. Chavez, on the other hand, is a sharp puncher that could take you out with one if he let it rip. But there was no letting it rip here. This was 2 old friends getting together to make $900K apiece. They both lacked fire and it was obvious it was a glorified sparring session. Still I enjoyed watching them, but they never let it rip, so don't expect fireworks if watching.

 

Guess I now have to score Ramirez-Whitaker 1. Seen it, but don't think I've ever scored this.