Muhammad Ali Punches

Right. Frazier and Norton were different in that they frequently took something off their shots. Foreman on the other hand tried to be a HW Cuevas, not varying the force of his shots and always telegraphing (something Pipino didn't do). Norton had that overhand right for reaching Ali over the top (Muhammad ducks more than usual with Kenny), while Frazier had much faster hands and often didn't telegraph as he typically went for the body anyways.

Watch the quintuple hook Louis uses to deck Max Baer the first time. The first two hooks did not throw Joe off balance, and he continued as though they had not missed, nailing the last three hooks in succession. The best single athletic moment in the Bomber's career.

 

I really appreciate your break downs! It's nice to see someone reference very specific moments in a fight going into detail the mechanics and ring IQ behind the moments.

Yes 70's Foreman often operated like a runaway train with only one gear. Sure he hit with absurd power, but at the cost of his stamina. If he didn't take his opponents out, failing to vary the level of power behind his shots would cost him. This is why, as you pointed out, Louis was in some ways even more dangerous even though he didn't hit as hard because he maintained good balance and control. Even if he missed, Louis was still in a good enough position to fire again or change his approach mid combination.

Towards the end of the 70's, Foreman started to have a little more patience when he had a guy hurt. In the Lyle fight, I believe it was round 3, Lyle was against the ropes and hurt trying to cover up. Foreman didn't just swing wildly and showed he learned from Zaire throwing light pitter patter shots until he saw an opening for a big punch.

 

I've always thought that patience was to his detriment imo. It was a vast overcorrection. I don't think '73-'74 Foreman goes life and death with Lyle or loses to Young.

 

He finished Williams cause Williams was shot. Literally.
Foreman punched himself out.
The Lyle stoppage was premature.
Shavers won their fight.
Liston was old and unprepared first time around. Took a dive the second fight.

So wtf are you talking about ?!?

 

Count the number of unanswered punches Lyle takes before the referee stops it.

By Earnie's own emphatic admission, Ali clearly beat him. (In the ring after that bout, Shavers thought he'd won, but when he viewed the videotape, he completely changed his tune and never wavered about Ali having won the decision fair and square.)

Liston had an injured left at Miami Beach. He'd gotten away with it in Patterson II (where you can see Sonny does most of his damage with his right, if you look closely), but didn't count on his challenger's ridiculous improvement after Cooper I.

After Lewiston, Liston told his wife Gerry that while the KD was legit, he'd have beaten the count if Ali had gone directly to a neutral corner and stayed there. They did resume fighting with Liston retreating as Ali missed everything, but referee JJW deferred to Nat Fleischer on the count, and Fleischer had no authority whatsoever. As things were, it should have continued.

Would Sonny have beaten the count without Ali's antics? Chuvalo inadvertently confirmed that Liston had horizontal nystagmus, raising some questions about that. Definitely no fix.

Foreman was mentally punched out after round five ("Is that all you've got?") George never produced a KD beyond round five in his first career. In all his bouts lasting past round five, his opponents (Peralta 2X, Davila, Scrap Iron I and Forte) all agreed Foreman's power noticeably diminished after five rounds.

No version of Cleveland Williams survives what Ali brought to the Astrodome in 1966. (In fact, no HW in history prevails over that hyper energetic performance.) He'd been stopped by Satterfield in 3, halted twice by Liston, drew with Machen and lost via SD in Terrell II before he got shot. His best win prior to Ali was his seventh round stoppage in Terrell I in 1962. Williams never could have been competitive with Ali, healthy or not.

 

Lol, Ali landed something like 17 unanswered punches on a teetering and tottering Lyle who ended up languishing on the ropes before the fight was stopped.

And, the ref stopped it just after Ali piled on a particularly nasty left hook that snapped Ron’s head back. Perfect stoppage.

Ali landed a cracking right hand that actually put Foreman down - George himself attested to the quality of that punch.

Also, Ali had already clearly staggered Foreman in round 4. People tend to “gas” due to getting the “you know what” punched out of them also. Boxers don’t tend to get a nice black eye from pure fatigue alone - if they do, that’s a very strange condition that needs checking into.

So on and so forth. I’m surprised you didn’t also suggest that the never before KO’d Ringo was merely slipping and falling all over the place due to a wet canvas in round 15 of his fight vs Ali.

 

That 'Black Eye Fatigue' is particular to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, I hear...

 

Williams being past his prime does not get rid of the ability to hurt him via beautiful timing.

Lyle took about 20 unanswered punches while hurt. Perfectly good stoppage.

No matter how you scored the Shavers fight, that has nothing to do with Ali staggering him against the ropes in the final round.

Again, even if he was "old and unprepared" he still stunned Liston via timing and precision.

So wtf are you talking about ?!?

 

Muhammad Ali is not a hard hitter at all. I can't find a video where Muhammad Ali says that about himself, but it exists. All it takes is possession in a boxing match, and often much more is required; is here:

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Footwork, timing, combo, stamina, accuracy, precision, ring IQ...
If Muhammad Ali had been forced to defend himself, he would have given much more of himself.
Who knows what kind of fight Muhammad Ali (Zora Folley) would give if he was forced to defend against the peak version of Tyson Fury (Wilder 2 or Wlad), Oleksandr Usyk, Wilder (Ortiz 2 or Fury 3), AJ ...
Muhammad Ali would be an elusive target.

 

It doesn't matter how many punches he received, if he was still standing, the ref should have let it continue until he was dropped.

His admission is irrelevant, I rewatched the fight a few months ago, Shavers clearly won. Ali only landed tappy taps for the most part.

Agreed, Liston underestimated Ali badly, but that doesn't change the fact that he was old, injured and not prepared properly.

Liston took a dive, it's as clear as daylight. Ali realized what was happening, that's why he was yelling: Get up you bum, nobody's gonna believe this. Ali wasn't involved in the dive of course, but it was a dive nonetheless.

True, I agree, but my point was Foreman fell down more due to exhaustion than due to Ali's punching power.

While he was very unlikely to win, a healthy Williams would have made it to the end.

 

Ali's power with Blue Lewis is pretty consistent, since he's aiming so much at a softer body with his rather brittle hands, rendering Alvin's legs noticeably weakened after only four rounds. A durable customer, Blue was only TKOed in nine by Leotis in November 1968 (in a match where Leotis came up to deck Alvin three times to score the automatic TKO) and stopped by Ali (with a real case that Lewis should've been counted out in the fifth). Going after the body with consistent power suggests he might have actually been driving Blue back with his punching force. (The vain Ali didn't typically risk his face like that, but Lewis wasn't exactly in a position to counter.

Earlier, Ali made the fight over the first five rounds on the counterpunching Mac Foster, trying to make good on a fifth round knockout prediction. He quickly reddened Mac's face, but the former Marine was only ever dropped and stopped by Jerry Quarry (in Mac's best career performance) and Ali didn't have THAT level of power in that condition. (This was his highest weight before Young, at 226, hardly the 212 for Norton II and Frazier II.)

He did have the powerful legs to support consistently heavier punching, just not the hands.

 

Archie Moore said on camera that the specific draining tactic Ali used on Foreman in Kinshasa was his yanking down on the back of Big George's neck, weakening him to the point where he was ready to be knocked out. I think Foreman was ready to go at any point after round five, but Ali allegedly told his corner he was now going to have some fun. George really had nothing left after Ali asked him, "Is that the best you've got?" (Foreman was thinking to himself, "Yeah, that's about it!")

 

he threw jabs at Williams' stomach wound area, I think Ali punched harder than a lot of people give him credit for, there is some footage of him denting and bouncing around a big heavy bag, he 100% punched harder than Usyk

 

So this is what it is like to take 'shrooms laced with LSD & sedatives Anubis?
Think I had an out-of-body sonic regression-expression experience.

 

Right now, more like propofol for me, as I'm coming out of anesthesia from a medical procedure....