What's Your Opinion Of Larry Holmes??

I think his era wouldve been considered strong if he fought guys like Dokes, Tate, Thomas, Tubbs, Page, and Coetzee. And gave some worthy rematches. The fights never happened though.

 

Larry was a great fighter, who, unfortunately, didn't unify the title. In addition, I think once Tim Witherspoon, and later, Carl Williams, put the scare into him, he avoided certain fighters to stay on top. And it came back to bite him in the ass later.

 

I'm not sure whether he is underrated or not, but he's extremely overrated nowadays. People have him as ridiculously high as #2 in their rankings. His resume is okay-ish, his best wins against a 34 year old Ken Norton and Earnie Shavers, who were much older than him were not a very stellar achievement to rank him so high.

 

Anywhere from 4 _7 is acceptable for me outside that ,no.

 

He's one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time.
Greater than any that have come since.

 

Oh? Do tell...

 

The case is there that Holmes could be the HW GOAT (although I've always given that distinction to 1966-1967 Ali). Peak Larry does not lose to peak Tyson, peak Foreman, peak Louis or peak Liston, let alone peak Michael Spinks or peak Holyfield. If Holmes was completely healthy, no version of Norton could have been competitive with him.

I have him in my top three. One of his two time opponents, Mike Weaver, places him securely in the top five. Colonel Bob Sheridan has repeatedly told fans he has Larry at Number One, and this is the broadcaster who announced Kinshasa and Manila from ringside.

For a single bout or trilogy against the peak Ali we saw with Cleveland Williams, Ernie Terrell and Zora Folley, or the mythical Ali from mid-late 1967 to mid-late 1970, my choice would be the Larry Holmes of Shavers I, or 1982, as long as Eddie Futch was in Larry's corner. (Ritchie Giachetti wouldn't do in this situation, as good as he was.) Holmes flew around the ring counter clockwise with Shavers in 1978 (winning all but maybe a couple of the 47 minutes), and showed with Evangelista that he could come over the top with his right as Norton needed to with Ali (something Liston could never do the save his life, as Sonny simply lacked the physical structure Norton otherwise lacked for deploying a straight right).

Eddie Futch would have Holmes cut off the ring counterclockwise to force Ali to engage him, use his jab to throw Ali's jab off rhythm, come over the top with his now un-telegraphed right, and utilize his right to Muhammad's body for points scoring purposes. Zora Folley had some success reaching Ali with his straight right, and Larry's right was longer and faster. Futch taught him to stop telegraphing his right by no longer lifting his left leg to tip it off. (Muhammad called Patterson his most skilled opponent, but it was Folley who had the most success getting to him. Holmes had all Folley's tools under Futch's tutelage, plus height, youth and speed Zora was missing.)

Not saying here that Holmes would definitely beat the Ali of 1966 to late 1970 (with no hiatus), but with Eddie Futch in Larry's corner, this is the single HW with the best tools and shot at the peak/mythical Ali.

Holmes had everything Futch could want in a HW for facing any version of Ali. (Larry would use his hook for a decoy to maneuver Ali's head into the right cross. Also, this would not be a situation where Muhammad could afford to give away body shots.)

For a fine example of Holmes using a winning body attack, particularly downstairs with his hook, check out Tiger Williams or Carl Williams. Larry didn't do it much, but these bouts demonstrated he always could when the situation called for it. (Both guys would use body punching more than usual.) I think Ali would probably bring out the amateur playbook like he did with Blue Lewis to go underneath and inside more than usual, but he'd need to be wary of the Holmes right uppercut that wrecked Hercules in Weaver I. (Larry was always a HW, while Muhammad grew up boxing, not always enjoying a height and reach advantage. Dundee might strategize and gear Ali with this probable alternative plan, and Ali slowly retreated while repeatedly spinning Frazier's head on the inside with his hook in Manila, a shot many consider Muhammad's key punch in the Thrilla.)

After Holmes-Mercer, Ray said, "I guess I'd better learn how to box!," an extraordinary concession for an Olympic Gold Medalist to make.(although all of Mercer's Olympic bouts were won via stoppage).


Winning 20 consecutive HW Title defenses as an undefeated boxer was utterly crazy at that time, something only a never exiled Ali might've pulled off. (Remember I said UNDERFEATED, as Louis had been knocked out by Schmeling.)

Never unified? During his WBA reign, Mike Weaver readily conceded that Larry was the top HW. Weaver, 'Spoon, Bonecrusher and Berbick were three future champions who he defeated in title defenses.

Ali was a Thyrolar overdosed corpse, yet nonetheless the linear HW Champion at that time after regaining the WBA Title from Leon. Regardless of Muhammad's condition, he shook hands on camera with Larry the morning after (on CBS for Good Morning America) saying he had no idea Holmes had gotten THAT good, far, far better than Muhammad expected after their sparring sessions before Kinshasa and Wepner.

Previously, Holmes dethroned Norton, so he'd defeated the linear, WBC and future WBA Champions in Norton, Ali and Weaver. Nobody questioned after Cooney and Cobb that Larry WAS the HW Champion, that the WBA title was meaningless. Sportscasters never wavered on this until after Michael Spinks I.

Larry himself concedes he lost only Tyson and Holyfield, and the case is indeed there that his actual career record could stand at 67-2-0, with 44 knockouts and 29 decisions against one loss by kayo (Tyson) and one loss by decision (Holyfield), from 1973 to 2002. No other HW Champion even had the potential to win over 29 years. Officially won over the Championship Distance three times. (Norton, where Larry's injured left was public knowledge going in, yet he dominated through the first several rounds, then clinched by slugging it out in the final three minutes in perhaps the greatest 15th round in HW history, and 15 round shutouts over Berbick and Cobb.)

During the post Championship Distance era, I don't follow boxing and don't rate anybody. (Frazier, Holmes and Shavers likewise haven't followed boxing in decades, as all stated on camera, the Acorn and Smoke before they passed. Credit to Ali for remaining a fan and friend to the sport.)

 

LAR-RY BO-MA-YE!
LAR-RY BO-MA-YE!
LAR-RY BO-MA-YE...

 

Yes, "strong" often seems another way of saying that the fans like it because it had good fights.

Whether this correlates to better fighters, well, who knows.

It remains a fact, though, that two middle-aged guys from Larry's generation had competitive or outright victorious fights against Moorer, Holyfield, McCall, Mercer...

 

I'll be honest with you: The idea that someone can look at one of these guys from totally different eras with a ridiculous number of wins over contenders -- Ali, Holmes, Wlad, Lewis, Louis -- and go "Oh, yeah, that guy is OBVIOUSLY better than the other dudes with ridiculous win records"...well, it's becoming harder for me to sustain that mentality.

 

Bugner beat Page and Bey deep into the 80s.

 

I guess the secret to success is being born sometime between 1949 and 1950.

 

Ali—>Traumatic Parkinson’s
Quarry—>pugilistic dementia
Frazier—>Blind in one eye and seemed a little punch drunk
Liston—>dead
Ellis—>blind in one eye

It’s not really a testament to the strength of the 80s that these guys weren’t there to compete.

 

Sorry, I might be missing what you're getting at.

I agree that they would've added nothing to the 80s. And it's a wee bit troubling that they remained competitive in the 70s as they gradually slid into the states you itemized.