What's Your Opinion Of Larry Holmes??

If they were healthy other than being old in the 80s, they might’ve been B and C listers like a few of the old guys in the 90s.

 

Probably true.

90s Foreman was an A-lister, though barely. I know reasonable minds differ on this point...

 

Fought bad comp

 

The man loved his cheeseburgers !!

 

Part of the reason I have difficulty considering post Championship Distance era boxers is because the reduction to a 12 round limit made the use of steroids and PEDs far more useful and consequential for drug cheats.

Michael Spinks did it the right way, cleanly. His body was the same for Tyson at 212 as it was for Sears at 170, and remains the same in retirement.

Qawi slammed Holyfield for using steroids for their rematch, we know for an absolute fact that Morrison was juiced to the gills by Tommy's own admission, and the way former lower weight champions like Haye, Moorer, RJJ, Toney, Barkley and others packed on muscle is obscene. (Joe "johngarfield" Rein told me that while Toney's body looked like a melted candle externally that underneath was an absurd muscularity.)

In the case of Mike Weaver and Ken Norton, they stated that their physiques were merely genetic gifts, and both were savage critics of weight training. Whether Hercules came in for Holmes at 202 in 1979 or 234 in 2000, Weaver's physique was the same, as was Holmes at 209 or 255. (In retirement, Mike lead aerobox classes, not anything having to do with weight training. During his WBA reign, he injured himself trying to lift weights. That was enough of that. (Hercules has gone on record stating that boxing lost an irretrievable lot by eliminating the Championship Distance.)

 

Ali didn't show signs of Parkinson's until '76 at the very earliest.
Quarry didn't show signs of dementia in the 70s. He first showed symptoms in '83.
Frazier had some vision in that eye (albeit limited) until after Manila.
Liston had exactly all of one fight in the 70s, and last I checked he wasn't dead for it either.
Ellis wasn't blind at all, in his entire career. Don't know where you're going with this.

 

In the post Muhammad Ali era, Larry Holmes filled that void with his skill, his ability, his confidence against some worthy challengers to his WBC and later IBF titles. Holmes defended his title 19 times, he had good lateral movement, even though decked on some occasions but displayed a champion heart, he also had one of the best jabs since Sonny Liston and brisk combinations. Holmes was in a class by himself, truly a great champion.

 

All time great piston like jab (first words come to mind)

 

IIRC from the last time this was discussed, the speech study that was published on Ali in 2017 saw signs of degeneration earlier, although it worsened post Shavers. Frazier admitted to faking vision tests earlier than the Thrilla.

As to whether Ellis was half blind, Liston was dead, etc., you would have to take that up with @NoNeck, whose post I was responding to.

I was making the uncontroversial observation that when top guys have serious health issues, it raises questions about that era's quality.

 

Not sure what else you want me to add. I got Ali at 1 and I'm always going back and fourth between Holmes and Louis at 2

 

What would your reasoning be?

Not disagreeing; genuinely curious

 

Their's no evidence whatsoever from that time period, Ali was sick, No shaking, no stuttering no issues with his motor skills reported by his team as this point.

He could very well be talking slower for a variety of reasons such as age, declining interest, fatigue. It means nothing unless accompanied by other symptoms which it evidently was not."

I talk slower than I did ten years ago despite being in much better health.

It only really became noticeable in '77.

I'm aware. He still had some vision in that eye. It might not have been a lot but he wasn't 100% blind in that eye, or particularly close to it until after Manila.

Noneck was making the observation that they all suffered from health problems.

He's correct that Ellis was half blind, but he's not the one who said it affected his performance in the ring.... you did.

Ellis had a nasty eye injury in '75..... which made him retire. So it had no effect in literally any of his fights. He was already a shot fighter by then by the way.

How did Liston's "success" in the 70s raise questions about the quality of the era? He had one fight, against a non-contender.

Seeing as it's universally considered the best era in heavyweight history, and has three near universal consensus top 10 ATGs, I'd say it's a pretty controversial opinion... as is your claim that Liston was a "slow slow man" which isn't remotely true. He was no speedster but his speed was about average.

 

If you have the link to the last time we went over Ali's Parkinson's and Frazier's vision, just post that for everyone's reference. That should cover most of it.

Re: Liston, people can see his speed on film. There's nothing for us to argue there. People can watch it and decide.

Re: your slowing speech, I doubt you've got peer reviewed articles by speech experts saying that you have Parkinson's.

Re: your belief that serious health problems among elite boxers do not raise questions about an era's quality, I obviously disagree.

On the rest, I never claimed to be anything close to an expert on the 70s, which I tend to lump with the late 60s. If I erred in interpreting NoNeck's post because of my own limited knowledge of that period, then so be it. Mea culpa. I suck.

But I know enough to say that being half blind in one eye, or having Parkinson's, has a major impact on athletic performance. These observations do not require your level of knowledge about the details on the 70s heavyweight scene to acknowledge as true. If you disagree with the impact of eye problems or Parkinson's on athletic performance, then yes, you are probably in the minority on that issue.

I think that's about all I'll say on the topic for now. It's not something I'm interested in typing another however-many-pages like we did the last time. It's already been said.

 

one of the best ever. Could compete with any heavyweight in history. I think the hard punchers could get Larry in a little bit of trouble. He had a good chin, but still not the best...

 

I don't have an actual list, but if I did, Holmes would probably be around #3 or #4.