Lomachenko; is he a H2H beast all time?

I think I found the hole in your argument. Most fans are as smart as a jar of sand.

 

Some of us understand that you don’t grade on a curve.

Just because his fans dispute his losses doesn’t mean we count them as wins. Just because he decided to fight at a higher weight class doesn’t mean we credit his losses there as wins — he’s not the first guy to rise in weight, and others did it far more successfully.

 

My point.

 

Hah, yes I see what You mean and your post is probably accurate if by legacy We mean perception in the eyes of rather ignorant people, or just mass audience. Here I don't mean to offend anyone who doens't rate Lomachenko highly, but rather those people who would judge him just based on record on paper and results without context.
I think on forum like this, where obviously many old-timers who were often fighting bigger men and had plenty of losses are still held in high regard, We can talk about legacy as more objective and sophisticated assesment in the eyes of people who understand and appreciate the sport.

 

I think it's most fair to compare him with past fighters that were about the same size in the ring, and that would probably be 135 lbs in the same day weigh-in era. Who knows how he would have done against the past great LWs, but we do know that the LWs he has competed with in the present era has been bigger, in some cases would be WWs in earlier eras.

As for 15 round fighter or not, all we can say about that is that he has always closed strongly over 12.

 

Well that’s two different questions: his legacy vs. him being an ATG H2H ‘beast.’

One can have a fine legacy but not stack up with the best in his weight divisions all-time H2H.

I think his legacy is he was a dominant fighter in two weight divisions in his time. Not sure he has enough impressive scalps to be discussed as an ATG in either division based on resume. For instance, I’d say Azumah Nelson has a much more impressive resume.

As far as H2H against the best from 126-135 (or if you want to try a sliding scale maybe it’s 135-147 since he’s got day-before weigh-in as @Bokaj suggested), I don’t see him being up there with the elite. Too many great fighters who I think would be too much for him.

Of course in H2H it’s all in the eye of the beholder.

 

Perfect!!!

 

Yes, it's all fair enough with some good points.
I would agree that Azumah's resume is still superior - but I'll add one thing that I'm not sure if You'll agree with, that his fight against Salvador Sanchez, even though He came up short there, is also important part of his legacy - and I don't think He would be greater fighter without that loss on his record. That's something I was refering to in my previous posts there, regarding Loma and his move to 135.

As for H2H - I think Your position is also fair, although I think Loma would make 135 perfectly fine even with same day weigh-in, his frame is small.
Loma has some great attributes and very unique skills, but for the standards of H2H All-Time "Beast", He has some flaws also that mostly come down to his efficiency. He can often make amazing, "matrix" type moves, ducking inside a punch, then stepping around his opponent very quick - but when He has his opponent in volunrable position, He often just angles off and gives it up, maybe only throwing 1 scoring punch before that.
I'm sure great fighters from the past would see it and be able to capitalize on it - but I also think that everyone - close to him in size - would have to at very least respect his abilities.

 

I think today's Loma would make 135 with even same day weigh-in. If he was active in the classical era, I think he'd have campaigned mostly at 135 with perhaps a few fights at 140.

 

Yep. Loma fans have done quite the journey over the last few years. From "the best ever" to "no fair, they're bigger than him". Langford, Greb, Walker, Armstrong, Conn, Robinson, Mayweather, Pac among others say hi.

 

I agree on Azumah’s valiant and impressive effort in losing to Sanchez enhancing his resume, but I don’t see the correlation to Loma’s losses to Lopez and Haney.

This is a still green Nelson in his 13th fight vs. an ATG featherweight at his peak. From that fight, Nelson won 18 fights in a row, 12 of them title fights, going undefeated from that 1982 loss until 1990. Loma certainly hasn’t done anything like that coming off his loss to Lopez … and I don’t think we’ll be talking about Lopez being one of the ATG lightweights when we look back on this, but Sanchez’s legacy has stood the test of time.

So Azumah wasn’t yet near prime (whereas we can argue that Loma’s prime is much earlier in his career given how long he stayed in the amateurs) and pressed an ATG to the limit and then didn’t lose again for eight years. Loma fought a pretty good Lopez in his loss and then lost again a few fights later — like 2 1/2 years and not fighting with near the frequency as Nelson did.

 

The short answer is no.

 

If Loma was The Matrix, the franchise would have been a couple of movies and Smith would have beaten him to end it.

 

My point was that Loma's losses to Lopez - also - but particulary Haney - since it was such a brilliant fight, to me - do more for his legacy than wins against smaller and less talented fighters He could've fought instead if He stayed at 130, would do.
You can definitely argue that Sanchez was superior, greater fighter and challange than Haney and Lopez, even at 135 - thus Azumah deserves even more credit, but then that's a matter of gradation.

Obviously the better Teo and Haney do in the future, the better those performances will look.

 

He was formidable at 126 and 130 although his resume is pretty limited at those weights. He’s solid at 135 but not special.

Food for thought: a lot of the older era lightweights would have the same issues that he’s having at 135 today due to the size difference.