Fighters who have no one to blame but themselves

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Saintpat, May 21, 2023.


  1. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Active Member Full Member

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    Herol Grahame vs Julian Jackson

    Herol had this guy beat, all ends up. All he needed to do was carry on doing what he was doing… hitting accurate shots in Jackson’s battered face, then retreating, taking no chances and making sure HE STAYED AWAY FROM THAT RIGHT HAND!

    But Graham decided he was going to finish it gloriously and went for the kill, getting up close annd personal with Jackson…abandoning his excellent game plan.
    And of course as we all know, Herol damn well nearly got his head taken off as he was knocked spark out!

    He only had himself to blame…
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
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  2. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Julian set the perfect trap.

    He couldn’t catch the guy. He couldn’t see the guy due to damage to his eyes. So he set up in a corner and lured Herol to him.

    I always thought this one was a bit overblown. Graham won three rounds and got KO’d in the fourth. It’s not like it was the last round and Julian was a dangerous puncher. Didn’t look to me like a fight on the verge of a stoppage.
     
  3. lone star

    lone star Active Member Full Member

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    Ali. The GOAT. Punch after comeback after punch after comeback. He took the **** out of Frazier but watch his last interviews. “Your show is so cheap don’t call for a while” and awkward laughter from audience.
     
  4. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Active Member Full Member

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    But apparently it was. Jackson’s eye was near closed, and the talk was it was about to be stopped precisely because of that. From memory watching it on TV, the ringside doctor was advising that the 4th could be the last round.
     
  5. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I’d have to go back and look but I don’t remember the doctor telling them that.

    With Julian’s power, every second he’s in there could be his opponent’s last … as he showed.
     
  6. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Active Member Full Member

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    Of course JJ was dangerous as long as he was in there, but the point was he would have been outa there as long as Herol continued what he was doing and didn’t try to rush the job. He didn’t need to get caught in Jackson’s ‘trap’ as you called it in your earlier post because everything was in his favour if he would have kept the status quo.

    I’ll look for a link to the ringside doctor’s advice during the fight.
     
  7. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Active Member Full Member

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    This content is protected

    At the beginning the commentators are telling us the doc says give him Jackson one more round.
     
  8. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    1) The commentator says, ‘I think the doctor says maybe just give him one more round or something’ — that’s three qualifiers. He didn’t say ‘we just heard the doctor tell Jackson he’s stopping it after this round.’ He’s speculating. The doctor visited the corner and the commentator is thinking out loud about what might have transpired.

    The doctor didn’t stop it. He’s letting it go on. If Jackson’s eye is too damaged to continue, he’d stop it. He wouldn’t let him fight with it, and if he’s willing to let him fight this round with it then there’s every reason to suppose he’d let him keep going if there’s no further damage.

    2) Even if the doctor did tell Jackson’s corner this, Herol and his corner have no way of knowing. They wouldn’t go tell the other corner, ‘if you stay away for one more round, I’m stopping it and awarding you a stoppage.’

    So I don’t think any of that changes anything.

    BTW, I’ve always wondered what’s up with the venue. They’re at some casino in Spain and I’d swear it doesn’t fit 100 people. How in the world would they make money off this?
     
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  9. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    Livingston Bramble vs Edwin El Chapo Rosario, Sept 26 1986, WBA World Lightweight Title, won by Rosario TKO 2. Bramble did not train properly, figuring to out box El Chapo as he out boxed Ray Boom Boom Mancini to win the title in 1984, but Rosario was able to penetrate Bramble's defense.
     
  10. Mike Cannon

    Mike Cannon Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Hi Buddy.
    Agree entirely, on this side of the pond, Conteh made a grave error when he didn't take George Francis over to the states for his fight with Willie " the bull " Taylor, John has very slender fingers, and proud knuckles, the were a problem from early on in his career, only Francis had the know how when it came to protecting his hands from any long term damage, it was all in the wrapping, but when Conteh split with the cartel of , Astair, Barret, Duff, and Lawless, he lost the services of Francis, the rest is history...
    stay safe Rich.
     
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  11. Richard M Murrieta

    Richard M Murrieta Now Deceased 2/4/25 Full Member

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    I agree as well my friend.
     
  12. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Active Member Full Member

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    I think you’re splitting hairs there a bit Saint…the general consensus was at the time that JJ’s eye was nearly fully closed. It was seen by all. This fight was not going to last much longer one way or another.
    The doctor examining the eye was not a secret…they weren’t talking in whispers. Plus seeing the doctor examining his opponent while it may not tell you exactly what they’re discussing…I have a sneaky suspicion that Herol guessed they weren’t talking about his blood pressure! He’d know that his opponent’s eye was serious enough to warrant this examination.

    But yes I take the point that Graham would not know categorically and for definite that this fight would be stopped if he avoided a KO defeat this round.
    But just like fighters who are cut badly and are allowed to carry on, the opposing boxer might not think…”Oh this will be stopped at the end of this round…I might as well run away for 3 minutes.”
    But what a canny boxer would probably do is box clever, target the damage with precision in order to accumulate the damage/cut further, and see where that takes him. I mean Herol was in control and thinking and SEEING clearly against a near half blind opponent…it wasn’t an emergency for him…it was an emergency for Jackson!

    Graham got careless in there…he had an advantage and he didn’t need to go in there all guns blazing, he dropped his guard. So I still maintain my stance…Herol has only himself to blame.

    As for the venue…the fight was not allowed in the UK due to Jackson’s eye issues and it not being sanctioned (?) Something like that, anyway. I’m talking from memory and haven’t double checked. So they decided to move it to a backyard somewhere it seems haha! Not the biggest or the best arena in Spain that’s for sure. Strange choice.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2023
  13. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Your points are well taken, but I don’t think a stoppage seems imminent here. Up to the stoppage, it didn’t seem the eye had been further damaged/closed. And rewatching the round, I think Herol was boxing clever and fairly carefully — he didn’t rush in wildly or anything.

    He did, however, fall for the trap. There’s a reason they say never follow a puncher. But I think if you check you’ll see he had been fighting fairly aggressively (for Herol at least) to get that advantage.

    I do agree there was some urgency necessary for Jackson. The eye was already closing and further work from Herol could have closed it and ended the fight. But we’ve also all seen fights where the ref inspected a guy and let it go on … and it kept going and didn’t become an issue that forced a stoppage.

    The only point I’m really making is arguing against this narrative that seems to have built over the years (probably rooted in speculation by a commentator) that all Herol had to do was run and hide for 3 minutes and the fight would have been halted in his favor. And there seems to be nothing to really base that upon other than what the commentator said about ‘maybe.’
     
  14. Saintpat

    Saintpat Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Jack has no one to blame but himself.

    He took his name from Jack Dempsey and Tom Sharkey.

    He could have instead chosen to call himself Tunney FitzJeffries and he’d have retired undefeated.
     
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  15. Vic The Gambler

    Vic The Gambler Active Member Full Member

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    Ok, points well made, and I’d agree especially if it was only the commentator’s words. Here’s the words from Herol’s corner…https://www.boxingnewsonline.net/on...on-repels-disaster-and-flattens-herol-graham/
     
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