Why is Liston given credit for being a harder puncher than Joe Louis?

I'd personally favor Patterson H2H.

Superior ATG.... hmm that's very tricky. Gun to my head, give me Patterson. As you say, Schmeling won the title on a technicality which takes a lot of luster off it. His greatest win was against a pre-prime Louis who elected to play golf rather than train. He also suffered a very brutal and ridiculously quick KO loss in the rematch.

 

When Louis set his mind to do so, he often did, though. Compare the rematches against Schmeling and Buddy Baer to the the first meetings, for example.

His default setting was a bit more cautious than Liston's, but when he decided to go all out it rarely lasted long.

 

I can see Floyd giving a good account of himself in the first fight before being KO'd, and Louis deciding to get it over quick in the second.

 

That's a bold statement. I think Patterson is greater, and I wouldn't make Max any more than at best equal in terms of better at their respective best.

Both are hard to say, of course. The latter even more so.

 

He tried to box him in the rematch. Different strategy same result.

 

What i am getting at is that if 38 vintage Louis was about in 30 Max never would have won the title, IMO. He, like Patterson, benefitted from a weak era. As it is his win still has an * to it. A lot of people could win the title by getting hit in the nads accidently and being awarded a DQ win tho there were no prior warnings. some might find that a teeny bit rich. By contrast Patterson beat Moore quite impressively and i also bear in mind Moore was highly enough considered to be a 9-5 favorite.

No I've elaborated above.

Ok so you don't just think Schmeling is better but you think they "aren't close". On that i very strongly disagree. For me there's no chance Schmeling is comfortably or widely above Patterson.

Yeah FOTC Ali would have pumped poor Max too for mine. Liston would have buried him too IMO. I'd favor the undertrained Louis over Patterson as styles come into it and Max at that point in time matched up to and exploited Louis' obvious weakness beautifully. It's still not enough for me to put Max comfortably ahead tho, for mine. Schmeling has some interesting losses too, including getting ko'd in 1 round by a guy coming off a loss and only 12 months off having 8 losses in a row.

It's great to see you having a dig yourself tho and putting yourself out there, ratings wise.

 

Max was more refined than Ingo, but his right hand wasn't as deadly.

Because Ingo looks a bit awkward on film, I think people overlook how deadly that right was.

Machen faced friggin everyone, but no one did to him what Ingo did. And even Liston didn't quite poleaxe Floyd like that with a single punch.

 

"Everyone" is really Machen, who was ranked nr. 1 by NBA when Floyd took on Harris, who was ranked nr. 4, instead. Pretty sure that Ingo was ranked nr. 1, and with good cause, after pounding Machen into the canvas.

I think Floyd defended against 3 of the 4 guys that was ranked as nr. 1 by the NBA for more than a month or so during his reign. And the one he didn't defend against (Machen) got brutally KO'd by a guy he did defend against. That's not a super job of avoiding everyone.

 

Liston rose to nr. 1 in 1960, just before Floyd regained his title. The rematch clause then stipulated a defence against Ingo. The year after that Liston got his shot.

Yes, McNeely got a shot in between (Liston was away from boxing part of that time because of legal trouble, though), but that doesn't make that much difference. Liston got his shot when he was still more than good enough to take it. It's not like Floyd waited him out until he was a withered husk. Losing the title to Ingo and rematch clauses was the main reason Liston had to wait.

 

I just watched the rematch! Liston came out, jabbed his face off, threw him around and beat him down. Patterson snuck a couple of hooks in there, and he bounced a bit, but he really didn't move his feet a ton. He was hopping about right in front of Liston getting smoked

 

There's a lot of narratives out there, and then there's the facts.

Williams at most made brief visits in the top 10 during Floyd's first reign, so let's get him out of the way right away. He was nowhere near being entitled to a title shot.

And while there may be a narrative about Ingo being viewed as an easy mark, I have never seen a single shred of evidence to back it up. The fact is that he brutally KO'd Machen. Have you seen that KO? It isn't nice. If someone has Cus on record saying that he for some reason viewed him as easy money anyway, then fine, but otherwise it's just talk without any substance.

And again you have the narrative of Liston on the rise, but the fact is that he probably hadn't even cracked the top 10 when Floyd signed with Ingo. He rose to the top spot when Ingo was champion by racking up back to back wins over Harris and Folley.

 

Not gonna lie, I used to think Patterson ducked Williams, but I'll concede you've convinced me otherwise in previous debates.

 

No, he tried to use the ring and then spring counter attacks, like he did against Chuvalo a couple of years later. Liston was just too good and strong. It was only after the second kd that a very dazed Floyd reverted to his usual style, but that lasted about three seconds.

 

It's fully conceivable that Cus viewed Williams as someone they'd rather not touch. I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted as little to do with that explosive power as possible. But the fact is that Cus was never put in a position where he had to try and keep Floyd away from him.