Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

I think Liston was good, but let's be honest, he really didn't prove himself against modern sized heavies like Tyson or Lewis or the K2 brothers did. His best opponents would be modern day cruisers, some could be light heavies with day before weigh ins. His marquis win was Floyd Patterson, a very fine fighter, but he was 190ish pounds at 6'0. And yes, he bombed out Patterson in 1 round, but if say, Wilder or AJ bombed out a 6 foot under 200 pound fighter in 1 round, but he kept getting up after being knocked down and it took him 3 knockdowns to put him away, it would be a major black mark against their punching power around here. Imagine if Tyson had to keep hitting Spinks flush to keep him down but Spinks got up 2 or 3 times? And Spinks was bulked up to 212 pounds at 6'3 which would have made him a giant by 1960 HW standards.

And it would be a 2nd black mark against him (Tyson, Wilder, AJ, Fury etc) that his best win was essentially a smaller sized cruiser who was 6 foot tall and under 200 pounds. But Liston tends to get a pass in this regard, Marciano doesn't seem to, at least from what I observe. The size or lack thereof of Marciano opponents get brought up constantly, but size wise, Patterson was in the same ballpark as Charles, Walcott and Moore.

And as far as age, many of the top fighters of today are in their 30s today and Charles, Walcott and Moore were still very formidable fighters. And as far as romanticize the fighters of old, well in 1960, Marciano wasn't "a fighter of old", he was a contemporary of Liston. In 1955 when Marciano retired, Liston was boxing as a pro, even though he wasn't high up in the rankings and many of the people who Liston fought were fighting in the early to mid 50s, like Cleveland Williams. Marciano was still a "modern" fighter in 1958-1962 when Liston was prime.

And how do I make "thread after thread" to discredit Liston? I didn't make this thread, did I?

 

Marciano wasn't a "fighter of yesterday" in 1960. He was seen as a contemporary of Liston. Jack Dempsey or Jack Johnson would have been a "fighter of yesterday" by 1960.

 

I think Liston is both physically and stylistically a bad match for Marciano. But I would give Rocky a “ slight “ chance based on his heart, power, two fisted attack and ability to slip the jab. Wouldn’t be a very good chance mind you but he’d be a live underdog at least

 

Years after this thread started...

I'd give Marciano a chance because he and Liston came from the same period of time. This isn't going to be a walkover like Wlad against Jack Johnson or something. They fought in similar divisions against a class of opponents who weren't worlds apart from each other. I'd bet on Liston, though.

 

I saw you posted on this thread and rushed here to see if you made a counter-proposal so that it was Rocky Marciano with Sonny’s reach or something like that.

For the record, I think if Rocky had Sonny’s reach he’d have lost a lot of decisions because his knuckles would be scraping the ground with his shorter stature, and he’d get hit by a jab and they’d call a knockdown because of his glove touching the canvas.

 

Ha! But there may have been only a 2" difference in the height of Liston & Marciano.

 

I’m not sure this is a strong argument. Sonny had a whopping size advantage over most of his victims. Easy to be tough when the other guy is small.

Sonny and Rocky both beat the right guys at the right time. You cannot split them in that respect. It would not be true to say either one navigated the division to meet easier opponents.

Against an old light heavyweight. Something you might accuse Rocky of doing. These old light heavyweights were pretty hot in the 1950s HW division. One broke sonny’s jaw.

I don’t think this is a strong argument.

sounds an awful lot like Sonny’s resume too. Floyd was a light heavyweight. Floyd, as recent #1 challenger to the LH championship even beat the light heavyweight champ to become HW champ first time around. Zora, Machen and Harris were no bigger than the guys Rocky beat. I don’t see Roy Harris and Machen beating Walcott or Charles. I don’t see Zora beating Moore. I cannot see any improvement in opponent’s here.

 

Its debatable on whether Liston hit harder than Marciano and Walcott was specifically focusing on how Moore should fight Marciano due to his style. Liston despite his power and long jab didn't have Moore's experience and certainly couldn't get punches off from any angle like Moore could.

Also, being taller and an upright fighter doesn't keep a short fighter from landing punches from above. Taller fighters getting hit from above from shorter fighters happens all the time in exchanges and Marciano against his larger less mobile opponents and stayed in his opponent's left shoulder so they wouldn't have much room to get their punches off.

Here is Bert Whitehurst fighting Liston. Whitehurst was around Marciano's size and he had no problem landing to Liston's body or looping punches around Liston's jab, which landed from above. Whitehurst also had history with Marciano, since he was Marciano's chief sparring partner for the Lastarza fight.

This content is protected

As for Liston's weaknesses. He was a much easier target in comparison to the more experienced guys Marciano fought like Charles, Walcott, Moore, LaStarza, and even Cockell and Liston's jab despite being powerful and long wasn't as effective as a Joe Louis jab. Liston also left his body wide open, so the idea that Rocky wouldn't be able to exploit any of Liston's weaknesses are laughable. I also have serious doubts about Liston being able to keep his jab going as the rounds progress against Marciano.

Here is a piece from Bert Whitehurst talking about a major weakness of Liston's in 1958.

From Heavyweight Bert Whitehurst: "Sonny Liston could be a great fighter, but he has such a powerful left he drives you so far back with it he can't hit you with a right."
https://imgur.com/Vvv36oj

Here is Joe Louis talking about some of Liston's weaknesses before his fight with Muhammad Ali.

"Liston punches with his left hand about as hard as anybody I've ever seen," Louis analyzed while the current champion worked over his sparmate. "But he's a little clumsily yet and he doesn't use his right hand properly."

There are visible flaws in Liston's style, Louis declared, for a bout with Clay.

"I picture a running fight," he observed. "That Clay will get on his bicycle and the question is how Liston can catch up to him. It might be harder than some folks think.

"Liston throws a long right hand." he continued. "He don't quite judge just right when he throws it and he's not close enough when he does. That's what we're trying to work on. He uses it a little too soon, instead of waiting until he gets in close."

He doesn't put Clay in a class with the two of the best boxers he faced - namely Billy Conn and Bob Pastor.

"They knew what they was doin'," Joe grinned. "That Clay doesn't have half the moves Conn had. That Billy was cute."

So "cute" that he almost boxed the crown off the Louis head in 1941 before he tried to knock out Louis and was flattened in the 13th round.

Their rematch - delayed five years by the war - was a fiasco because Conn had lost his speed and Louis most of his skill through the intervening years.

"Those years," sighed Joe, "they have a way of taking things away from you."

Like, for instance, a shot at a guy named Liston. The look in Joe's brown eyes hinted that it would have meant more to him than a "big payday."
https://imgur.com/aUTeunv

 

Blatant example of you," massaging the facts" to propound your well documented lets **** on Liston agenda.
"Sonny had a whopping size advantage over most of his victims. Easy to be tough when the other guy is small."
Liston opponents where the weight disparity[these are heavyweights] was negligible.
Lincoln 6'2" 209 1/2lbs S L 216 3/4lbs
Rischer 200lbs SL 210lbs
Clark 6'3" 215lbs SL 219lbs
McMurray 6'4" 210lbs SL 228lbs
Rush 214lbs SL220lbs
Bailey 215lbs SL 221lbs
King 6'2" 204lbs SL 219lbs
Folley 6'1" 198lbs SL 212lbs
Besmanoff 201lbs SL 210lbs
Valdes 6'3" 211lbs SL 211lbs
DeJohn 6'2 1/2" 202lbs SL209 lbs
Cabb 211lbs SL 211lbs
Bethea 204lbs SL 204lbs
Brtko197lbs SL 202lbs
Welch 208lbs SL 202lbs
Summerlin 196lb SL 201lbs
Howlett 203lbs SL 203lbs
Wepner 6'4" 228lbs SL 219lbs
Lee 298lbs SL 201lbs
Ponce de Leon 215lbs SL 200lbs*

*This was the guy you ,in an effort to big up Rex Layne's power ,said Layne ko'd but who later went the distance with Liston,neglecting to add it was Liston's second fight!
Marciano held a weight advantage over 14 of his opponents.
Twenty two of Rocky's opponents were under 190lbs.
Seven under 180lbs.
Quite a few of those Liston opponents I've named here were younger,whilst Liston was aging.
The reverse is true of Marciano.
Conclusion.
You are a thoroughly dishonest poster,and deserve all the **** you get!

 

Whitehurst was knocked through the ropes, and was attempting to climb back into the ring as the final bell rang at the count of seven.

 

Serious question to the Marciano acolytes here ...

Why do you try so hard?

What is it about this guy? Why is he so special to you? Why does he mean so much to you that you try so hard to defend him, and you cannot envision any possibility in which he loses to anyone? Why do you think "he will always find a way?"

I have speculated along those lines, I'd actually like to hear someone offer the reasons.

 

I don't think his best win was over Patterson as he was devastating cleaning out the division including crushing guys D'Amato would not let Floyd fight ... he demolished pretty much everyone other than Machen who cleanly decisioned ... Williams and Valdez were larger men and at well past forty he pulverized the 6' 6" Wepner but you can only fight who was there .. Liston was 6' 1" and 215 or so worth out ever touching a weight in his life .. his huge reach is well documented .. Foreman flat out said even as an old fighter Liston was an exceptionally strong man .. Manny Steward studied Liston and raved about his abilities in his prime ... Rocky was also a great fighter but I feel the size and match up would have been terrible for him ...

 

Did Marciano prove himself against modern sized heavyweights?
Twenty two of his foes were under 190lbs!

 

.
Moore was still a lhvy when he challenged Marciano,in fact he was the reigning champ.