Sonny Liston vs Rocky Marciano

The question I asked had nothing to do with that, it was inferred by others. My question was why is Marciano so special to folks that they try so hard and twist themselves into such contortions to resist anyone who even contemplates the notion that he could lose to someone?

 

1) whether Liston hit harder than Rocky doesn't matter much. Liston hit like a trick and Rocky's skin wouldn't handle the damage according to Walcot himself. Walcott said Rocky had poor defense and cut easily, two horrible ingredients when going up against a hard hitting boxer-puncher with a tremendous reach advantage.

2) Rocky isn't going to be able to stick to Liston's left shoulder because he'd be running into a sledgehammer jab. Even if he gets past that, Liston isn't going to just let Rocky crowd him, he'll push him back and throw powerful uppercuts.

3) Liston was not an easy wide open target. Gazelle Punch actually did some punch stat numbers showing Liston was hard hit cleanly and parried many blows or partially blocked them. As for Rocky going to the body, good luck getting past an 84' reach consistently.

4) If Liston's jab is powerful enough to send Rocky backwards and out of range for the right, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It would force Rocky to reset and get frustrated anytime he tried to get inside making it a tedious, painful battle for control of range.

 

This is precisely what happened. Powell and Alonzo whupped Valdes from the ratings then both lost their next fights. I even posted the ratings showing that Alex miteff and Roy Harris had replaced Powell and Alonzo in the ratings by the time Liston fought Valdes. Nino was, as we know, unrated for Liston.

 

I'm done debating you. I've had it with the dishonesty. Please don't engage with me in the future. Thank you.

 

Rocky was hard to hit with long punches. That was the mistake better fighters always made with him. Marciano just came in far too low for long punches to be that beneficial. He always made it to the other guys shoulder. He got there like a wrestler makes a takedown.

 

It’s not dishonesty. It’s another opinion.

 

I don't know and don't care. Take it up with Nat Fleischer.

Here's another fun fact for you. In Valdez's very next fight, he stopped a ranked Brian London who was coming off a title shot to Patterson. In fact Valdez stopped him quicker than Patterson.

 

Have you seen that fight? London may have lost but he retired Valdes from boxing. The ref stopped Brian on a cut even though he was getting the better of things. Valdes was quite dirty with the head.

 

Name one contender, Marciano knocked out who I called unskilled. You're arguing with yourself at this point.

Dejohn perhaps but Valdez and especially Williams were a class above Dejohn. This is obvious to anyone with an inkling of knowledge of the era. Dejohn was a fringe contender, who lost to men who failed to beat Williams. Williams was an elite contender who always beat the fringe contenders and fought on level terms with fellow elite contenders in Machen and Terrell (for whom he was injured in their rematch which many still scored for him).

If Williams had been stopped by Joe Louis in 1948 rather than Liston in 1958, Williams wouldn't have this reputation as some monster only Liston could slay and instead a more realistic view of him as a solid contender who was a big man that could crack.

I disagree. Louis's best wins were against the wide open Max Baer who had no jab to speak of, and fell halfway over to deliver an uppercut, and Schmeling who despite losing to the defensively inept Baer, beat Louis in their first bout.

I don't think much of Valdez but I wouldn't pick anyone except perhaps Schmeling (and Louis of course) of that era to beat him. Let alone Williams, and Valdez.

It's not? Sure sounds like it is. Which would also be consistent with the countless times you've tried to disparage Liston.

Since you're quite obviously not educated on the era, I'll impart some knowledge. After Rocky's nose injury against Charles, it was still quite fragile so they went with the much safer number 2 Cockell.

I hope you realize this doesn't give him a pass. Styles make fights, and fights are fought for a reason.

You sure have a lot of feelings for someone quite ignorant of this era. Valdez is already (rightfully imho) frequently stated not to be as good as today's heavies.

He would be accused of "ducking and cowering before Moore" for fighting his number one as opposed to his number 2? Do you hear yourself right now?

More than half of Liston's fights were against men 200+ pounds. Marciano fought about 9 fighters above 200 pounds. Much as you try to muddle the facts, Liston's opponents were clearly bigger than Marciano's.

 

Valdez isn't the only fighter London retired in a losing effort.

 

Brian London was journeyman level and anyone remotely world class and some who weren't stopped him so what does that prove.

I find it utterly bonkers that anyone would try to hype up a win over a guy losing to the guys Valdes was losing to at that stage. If Alonzo Johnson and Charlie Powell are beating Valdes than clearly it's not a big achievement on the part of Liston

 

Did I say it was a big achievement? No. Don't put words in my mouth. I've even said, that even the best Valdez was inferior to Williams and Machen.

You made the claim Valdez wasn't ranked, and you were wrong.

Anyways who are these guys who weren't world class who stopped London anywhere near his prime? I'm in for a laugh.

 

Dick Richardson for one

And no everything points to Valdes being unranked. That what happens when you lose to multiple unranked opponents like Valdes did. And how on earth are we fitting Valdes let alone London in the top ten with Valdes losing to Powell etc?

 

Richardson was losing handily to London and only beat him on cuts he inflicted with illegal headbutts that he should've been disqualified for. Something he was notorious for doing, when the going got tough as he demonstrated against Williams and Dejohn.

Richardson was also rated, so he doesn't fit the criteria regardless.

 

You are lying about lying for ****s sake choc. Show some honesty. You can't fob off blatantly incorrect comments dozens and dozens of times to innocent mistakes and the like....when every single bit! of misinformation just happens to fall on the side you are championing!!!! some of them have even been called out prior.