Why is Tysons competition poo pooed

Most of the time Floyd faced his nr. 1 and then a softer opponent in a year. So not Marciano standard, but far from uncommon either.

The two years he didn't face the nr. 1 was when he went for nr. 3 ranked Harris in 1958 and when he had his rubber match with Ingo, ranked nr. 2 I believe, in 1961. No excuses for Harris instead of Machen, but he had a rematch clause with Ingo so pretty much had to face him.

And I think it's mostly hindsight that has Harris as this gimme. He was nr. 3 after all and undefeated, I believe. SI named him possibly the best contender, so no one seemed to be deemed outstanding at the time. But, yes, the fact is that Floyd sidestepped the nr. 1 contender.

And yes, later on D'Amato wanted to keep him away from Liston, that's true.

London was actually ranked nr. 2 behind Ingo in late '58 due to beating Pastrano. Then he lost to Cooper in early '59 and dropped a bit in the rankings. I don't know when his fight with Floyd was signed, but a bit weak if it was after the loss to Cooper.

A bit of context to the Rademacher fight is that it was only three weeks after defending against nr. 1 Jackson. So it reads like somewhat of a bonus, but definitely a bit of a sideshow.

 

Bokai, A really good post, you explained a lot. But truthfully Cus D Amato did act like an overbearing parent, sometimes that is good, there is a lot of evil out in the world but if you do not allow a fighter or child get his or her feet wet, what happens when you are no longer around? Sometimes someone like D Amato has good intentions but if Patterson was allowed to face tougher competition, he may have been better prepared physically and emotionally to face Sonny Liston. It is kind of like in the fictional movie Rocky III (1982) Rocky fought chumps during his title reign, Mickey protected him. But when a destroyer like Clubber Lang came around, Rocky was not ready, too many soft touches in the ring.

 

I think he at the very least would have needed Evan Field's doctor to even ever make it into the third with Sonny.

 

You saying Joe Czak and Big Yank Ball were hand-picked?

 

They were buddy, but then came along Big Clubber Lang, I Pity The Fool. Ha Ha.

 

I just think that Patterson had been way too over protected to beat Sonny Liston or at least have a chance against him, emotionally he was not ready, already there was self doubt inside of Floyd. Remember the disguise gag after Ingo, the beard and all that. An emotionally healthy person would have accepted the defeat and trained hard for the rematch, figured out what he did wrong and tried to correct it.

 

Floyd defended the heavyweight champion of the world against the best available amateur without a pro fight. What more can a guy do?

 

I actually think that Patterson gets very underrated mentally. I have him as one of the strongest champions from a mental standpoint.

A lot is made out of that disguise, but all that tells us is that he was very ashamed to lose, which actually can be a very constructive feeling since it makes you never want to lose again. Some, like Naz, retire when that happens and many others are never the same again, but Floyd stayed competitive on a world class level for another 10 years, despite being crushed by Liston again and then humiliated by Ali. Just compare that to Terrell who suffered similar treatment on the hands of Ali and dropped off the map completely. Floyd instead actually improved on his first performance in his last fight, at the age of 37.

He was a beast mentally. Got absolutely undressed in world title fights three times, but kept on going just as strong. Don't know anyone else who's done that.

 

All that Cus D’Amato guru mumbo-jumbo can work for a fighter but also against him at time.

Cus talked so much about fear that he planted seeds and with a fighter like Floyd, that probably led to self-doubt at times.

There’s nothing weak about having self-doubt. But Floyd — and everyone on here who has bothered to pay attention to my posts knows I’m a harsh critic of him on some things — was ALWAYS willing and even eager to face his fears head-on. That is admirable. He defended against Sonny when Cus wanted to run and hide and use Sonny’s prison background as an excuse. Floyd stepped back into the ring twice with a man (Ingo) who had wiped the floor with him. And again with Sonny. And he dusted himself off after those defeats and became a staple in the heavyweight rankings for years.

You don’t do all that if you’re mentally weak. But being mentally strong is like that game plan that goes out the window when you get hit with a rock — especially if that rock is propelled by Norse ‘tundar’ or Sonny’s big hands.

 

Not to boast, but I have my degree in Psychology. If you are ashamed to lose at something like sports for example, a rational individual feels bad inside or ashamed like yo posted but they do something about it for the next time around, learn from their mistakes, life is like that. I give him credit for taking out Ingo in their rematch but Cus D Amato did not really believe in his fighter, did not have the confidence in Patterson to beat Liston, it showed in his actions. Even the then President, John F. Kennedy had to have some confidence in Patterson, he invited Floyd to the White House and told him he better beat Liston, to save the youth of America from Sonny. By the way, Ernie Terrell did not drop off the map after getting humiliated by Muhammad Ali in Feb 1967, Ernie participated in the WBA Tournament of 1967, he lost to Thad Spencer, fought mediocre competition until making a resurgence into the top ten in mid 1973.

 

Yeah, I meant that Terrell dropped off the map in terms of performance. I know he stayed active, but he had a pretty good run before Ali and never a good win after that.

I really admire how Floyd came back after every setback. But with Liston it was just pure physics. No amount of self-belief would have made Patterson beat him.

 

Bokai, With all due respect, many a smaller man could beat a taller fighter. Physics has nothing to do with a boxing match, that is a myth. If a fighter has self belief, trains hard, has management who believes in him, then he has a chance.

 

Heavyweight boxers in the 1980s had the bad luck of being in the post-Muhammad Ali era..its a bit like everyone who expected Mayweather-Pacquiao to be Hagler-Hearns: they were let down. I did not expect it to be that way so I was satistied with what we got (not that Im watching it over and over either but)

The Heavyweights had such a golden era i n the Ali-Frazier--Foreman-Norton-Holmes-Shavers-Bob Foster-Mac Foster-Quarry-Ellis--Lyle-Patterson etc era, that everyone sort of expected it to continue going on with John Tate-Greg Page-Gerry Cooney-Trevor Berbick and etc. Sadly, Larry Holmes was the only one left from the Ali era that went long into the 80s and the rest, while very good, were overlooked due to a number of reasons, among them the public's unreal expectations and also in many cases their own drug and alcohol problems.

So there are several reasons why......but for five years or so, Tyson was the absolute best Heavyweight in the world.

 

Physics have very much to do with a boxing match, otherwise we wouldn't need weight classes. Loma would make Wilder look absolutely foolish.

But, of course, you weren't being literal - and, yes, you can overcome physical inferiority to a degree with preparation and mental fortitude. But Liston-Patterson was actually more of a mismatch physically than Foreman-Frazier and no one says Frazier lacked mental fortitude. Sometimes the sum of your physical and stylistical advantages is something you can't overcome. That was the case with Patterson-Liston I'd say.

The talk of him being hampered by fear and this and that isn't really supported by facts. I think it's informed mainly by the fact that he didn't look like a hard man.

 

Be serious, I know about weight classes. I am talking about heavyweights, both Liston and Patterson were full fledged heavyweights in 1962. I looked at Patterson's body language, it spelled fear. His trainer did not believe in him, Patterson did not believe in himself, why should he? When you were a kid, did you ever beat someone bigger than you in a street fight? I have. It is what you know, your confidence and skill. I am 64, not 124 and forgetful. Let's be serious.