Matter of fact who would win between usyk and Tyson?

Tyson. Providing he's done it inside 8. He gets very frustrated when out boxed and starts losing composure. Usyk will struggle with the power.

 

The 86-91 (yes even post Douglas) version of Tyson would stop Usyk, not beat.......stop him.

The post prison version I believe would lose to Usyk. He really wasn't very good and doesn't have even one quality win.

 

It is a "cold hard fact" that rehydrating up to 10% is relatively easy in 24, let alone 36 hours.
At least with someone who is not bony/low muscle for their weight (generally tall for the division).
Some do more, I gave you an example of over 20%.

I did not say that Usyk was as big as Foreman-as a CW.
Maybe someone else did.
He actually is as big as first career Foreman as a HW-due undoubtably to weight training, although he has a smaller bone structure & taking into account Foreman's frequent dehydration due to Saddler's idiocy, Foreman would likely have been bigger/@ 230 if both had as much water in the system.
Foreman was around this size when quite young, his bone structure accomondated natural muscle more than most all who transferred later to HW-like Holyfield.
Nor did I say Usyk was the same size as a CW-to get to ~ 221.5 he must have added muscle, likely a bit of fat.
So he like most everyone who goes up to HW added mass to compete better.

Here is a discussion re: another fighter & the CW/HW divide.
It seems 210-220 is common, which still gets near 10%-but I have not heard of guys at CW being as extreme in PERCENTAGE of weight gained after rehydration as a few others in lighter divisions. [url]https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/beterbiev-at-cruiserweight.679282/[/url]

I was responding to how Holyfield at an (upper body) muscular 218 lbs. should have been able to make CW without a problem.
Of course there was no benefit for him doing so, since he wanted the accomplishment/glory & much bigger money of being a dominant HW + a champion.

When I replied it was extremely late EST & I wanted to go to bed so did not do a lot of research.
I told you it seemed CWs tended to rehydrate a lesser %-I had heard up to 220 or so in the past, which makes mathematical sense.

 

I don't think rehydrating up 10% in 24 or 36 hours is "relatively easy". Nor do I think a 218lbs fight night Holyfield could have made 200lbs the day before "without a problem".

From a quick manual count, I get 17 of the first 50 fighters listed here as adding 10% or more body weight following the official weigh in - [url]https://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2014/01/fight-night-boxing-weights-list-of.html?m=1[/url] - you'll note its typically the lighter fighters who do, and not, for e.g., the LHWs (0 out 6). I'd guess the % of CWs weighing 220lbs+ in the ring is substantially lower than 30%.

So, whilst 10%+ rehydration isn't uncommon, it's in the minority, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that the majority of those that do would not describe the weight making experience as easy or without problems. I'd go further and say, that whilst for that roughly one third of fighters who add 10%+, must feel the advantages of making a weight division where they typically outweigh their opponent in the ring outweigh (please pardon the pun) the disadvantages of being weakened from such an extreme cut, in almost all cases they won't be 100% in the ring come the fight. If they were and it was easy, all fighters would do it.

 

Good I am glad for your specificity & usual intellectual rigor!
It is admittedly a judgement call if someone can do a specific rde/rehydration pushing 10%. Here is my case that it is relatively easy for Holyfield.

1) While only ~ 1/3 of the fighters you see listed did it in the list you showed, that does not speak to pprecisely how difficult it is.
We agree that they *may* be weakened-& that the advantages of doing it still usually "outweigh" not doing so.
I want to see evidence that in almost all cases they are weakened, nore on that below...
You need to count the 9% too, since that is the max Holyfield would need to do...

2) Wrestlers do it frequently, sometimes more extremely.
2a) if it is 36 hours-& I believe that is usually around what it is, correct me if I am wrong-then it is clearly beasier than barely 1 day.

3) That CWs do it less often does not speak to it being at all harder for them.
Which leads to...

4) That Holyfield had a good amount of muscle-clearly a say Deonty Wilder at say 212.5 vs. Fury for one fight, or Hearns @ 145 against SRL would have more-& I say easily make the standard of "not at all easily" lose the same 9% of their bodyweight.
You did not address this, so I suppose you know that muscle has substantially more water than say fat or other tissue.

5) 9% is pushing what is not difficult-many do not do it due to not wanting the headache, & so many have less muscle even per their weight than Holyfield.
So while at least 5% is more common, I can see how it may or may not be worth it or guys would not be motivated to go near 10%...

Anyway it is a matter of degree, what % we define as difficult...
And 9% IS significant, hence I used the term "relative" easy.

 

Thank you.

I've read all your points, but none of them explain this - we both acknowledge the advantages of being big/heavy relative to your opponent, so if, as you'd claimed in your precious post, rehydrating 10% is relatively easy, then why don't all boxers below HW do it? Why do roughly two thirds deny themselves this easily obtained advantage?

As for those that do it, I suspect we are at cross purposes in our interpretation of the word "easy". I'm guessing you mean possible or achievable, whereas as I've taken the literal interpretation, I.e. without difficulty. I'd have thought it obvious that 10% would be a difficult experience. Many boxers are on record about how hard making weight is. Crawford was known to dehydrate 10%+ at LW and LWW. Take a look at this video, I wouldnt describe the experience as easy -

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As for Holyfield making 200lbs the day before he weighed 218lbs - We know that sort of % gain isn't unprecedented, so I concede it's possible. We also know it's above average. I'm confident that had he been able to, it wouldn't have been "without problem", I.e. I suspect the experience would have felt very much like a problem to Evander at the time even if he had managed it. Whether or not Holyfield would have been able to do it and be close to 100% come fight time, is where the discussion becomes pure speculation.

 

I know you meant "previous" not the accidental sarcasm of "precious" above.
I gave some reasons why all guys do not do it, but I admit that things like not willing to put in the effort do not account for most of those not doing it.
Again, Holyfield would be within 9%. Each point makes a difference!
And we are using the same literal definistion of "easy". Just mine is modified by "relatively"-& still that phrase cannot be infinitely flexible & must be defined.
I have cited myself (in as past post) chancing upon a fight in na Harlem club where Crawford fought at 157 when weighing in for the 140 division.

Now besides the subjectivity of the semantic difference...
Two things account for our differences.
1) It may be a little harder than I think!
2) You are citing examples like Crawford where he goes at least a little over 10%.
That difference between 9% is significant-each pound when you get to a significant level of water loss is more difficult.
2a) Again, Holyfield contains a lot of muscle. Much more than Crawford.

So combine those two *relatively* small factors, it makes a significant difference!

Still we have some gap between us-but if you acknowledge that a couple or more % is significant, + muscle being mostly water means it is harder for someone who has less of it to shed it from the remaining body parts...

We are not very far apart.

 

Haha, sorry, yes I meant previous. Damn autocorrect.

I addressed 2 points from your initial post - 1) 10% was relatively easy; and 2) Holyfield getting to 200lbs the day before when he fought at 218lbs.

On the latter point and given you correctly mention every little makes a difference, I'll point out Holyfield was 218lbs at the weigh in. During camp his body will have been used to burning a tremendous amount of calories through hard training. Yet in c.36 hours between weign in and fight he will have been resting, whilst still consuming energy rich food, for obvious reasons. Taking onboard those calories and not burning them off as his body will have become accustomed to, I suspect he'd be over 220lbs in the ring, maybe even close to 225lbs.

Yes, on balance, I think we can agree that it wouldn't be unprecedented for the version of Holy that we are discussing to have made 200lbs the day before, but it would have involved an above average cut/gain.

 

We are mostly on the same page here!
Save that there is no reason to know how much he would gain-& the gain would amount overwhelmingly to water.

How much he would eat & drink is unknown.
If he started at 218 & it was not too hard to get back there, then he could easily restrain what he consumed.
But IF he could get near 225 without extraordinary effort, that is some indication that the 9% with his build is not so difficult as those with different tasks & constitutions...
Hell even if it was (likely) pre-steroids/HGH Holyfield weighing in the 180's at CW, & even if "just" 9%...That would be noticeably harder for him without so much water-rich muscle!

I do agree that 10% within a day is usually pretty challenging!
But make it 9%.
Make it someone with as much muscle as Holyfield.
Then add that it can be 36 hours...

That is not nearly as hard.
These 3 factors escalate in the impact they make.
Especially the final condition, adding 50% total time ti rehydrate-that is quite significant don't you think?

Edit: I see Crawford went from 135 to 153-that is significantly more than 10%.
Also he did it in only 24 hours.
Even IF Evander had only 24 hours, with all his bulk & needing no more than 9%, he would have an easier time than Craford-he would not have to literally sweat the last very few pounds off at the end to make weight, unlike Crawford.

Now take someone without the upper body of a Greek God, make it 10%, then the biggest difference maker, give them just 24 hours...
That has gotta be much harder!

 

Couple of points here:

1) I'm saying for the HW fights Holyfield weighed in at 218lbs he would almost certainly have been over 220lbs in the ring. In the c.36 hours between that weigh in and the fight he wouldn't have been exercising hard, burning huge amounts of calories, as his body would have been accustomed to during camp. He most certainly would have been consuming energy rich food the day of the fight, for obvious reasons. I'd guess him at 222lbs in the ring at HW having weighed in at 218lbs and doubt he would be much more than 2lbs either side of that. So, we are probably talking about a c.220-224lbs in the ring Holyfield, having to make 200lbs the day before. Again, not unprecedented, but a 20lbs+ gain is in the realms of an outlier.

2) I'm not sure where you're getting the distinction between 24 and 36 hour weigh ins from. The period that elapses between weigh ins and the fight varies, but typically is c.34 hours (late morning/lunch time on the Friday weigh in to 10 or 11pm fight Saturday). That will be true of the weight gains cited on the link posted and is presumably what we are both assuming to our speculative discussion on Evander?

 

The second one is easy to dispense with.
I thought it was about 36 hours-you must have nailed it more precisely, I did not calculate it closely.
It is just that people TALK or write about 24 hour weigh ins-but with 34 hours making a weight is much easier than many think.

As for the first point, I see no scien-terrific reason to know within a small range of error how much Holyfield regains under those circumstances.
Although I am also saying he could tailor it, I understand you are correctly implying that he would have no need to in the unlimited division.

 

I'm typically 2-3lbs heavier in the evening than late morning/lunch time. I suspect that's typical for most people. Factor in that the Holyfield that weighed in at 218lbs would, post that weigh in, have been consuming calories to give him energy for the fight, whilst resting, after a 8-10 week camp where his body had become accustomed to burning huge amount of calories each day, I think its reasonable to estimate Holyfield who weighed in the day before at 218lbs, as at least 220lbs on fight night, wouldn't you?

 

It's a cold hard fact you have given me no cold hard facts about fighters doing it i.e. down to 200 from 218 odd and back to 218 odd.

I never said you did.

That discussion has done absolutely nothing for you.

You were responding to my claim Holyfield would not drop from 218 to 200 then back to 218 again to fight, lets not cut it in half.

That's on you, I can only respond to the words written and have no idea if someone is in need of some supposed peepy bye or such.

Again, I've seen no proof or cold hard examples given. I've heard a lot of things in my life and quite a few turned out to be exaggerations, some of them grossly.

I reiterate, i do not believe Holyfield would be dropping 15-18 pounds to make 200 and then rehydrating to 218 odd in the current climate, and particularly not "easily".

 

Usyk is an excellent fighter, but has he proved himself at heavyweight anywhere near as much as, say, Tony Tucker or Tony Tubbs?

To me it's too early to make an informed opinion.

He beat Joshua twice, ok.

 

No I must respectfully disagree with you there.
There are no specific mathematics that show me that he would weigh either several pounds more or less than 218.

I knew you meant to add the extra rest & calories he consumed; but it does not make sense to add that on top of rehydration.
You see, everyone who gets back to roughly where they were pre-dehydration does not...

1) Necessarily end up exactly at or above where they started.
1a) There is only so much food one can eat & hold within a day-or that is GOOD for them to do.
The vast majority of the weight will be water.

2) Part of the process of getting back near where they were involved those very factors-the proportion of water lost & gained & food in the system or excreted is not precise.

A man may get only near where he started, or certainly *more* than 2 lbs. from it-the only thing that need be precise is making weight @34 hours before.
A Holyfield that had to make CW may have started several pounds above or under 218.
If he starts at our proposed 2nd Tyson fight 218 lbs., he may rehydrate a bit above or below that.

By the way, I realized that in the video you showed where Crawfor emaciated himself, he lost & regained precisely 18 lbs.: just like Holyfield!
But even given presumably about exactly the same time to turn the trick...

It would likely be

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easier for Holyfield.
Stipulating they may well not start & end at precisely the same weight...

A) Holyfield has far more muscle weight.
B) Holyfield going from 218/200/218 is a significantly smaller % (esp. when every little bit makes a difference)...
Than Crawford dieting from 153/135/153.

Holyfield being approaching 50% heavier & with even more muscle per square inch, both before & after de/rehydration is a significant cushion for pushin' the body's capacity to shed the same amount of water weight-& put it back on!